I know the typical joseki is like this

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[go]$$Bc
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . O O . . .
$$ | . O O O X X X . .
$$ | . O X X . . . . .
$$ | . X . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

But I've seen some players go like this

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[go]$$Bc
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O O 2 3 . . .
$$ | . . X X 1 . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

I'm curious firstly, is there a big difference when black goes E16 as opposed to E17. Second is, how does black follow up when white responds like this

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O O 2 3 . . .
$$ | . . X X 1 4 . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

My initial thought was this

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . 5 . . .
$$ | . 7 O O 2 3 . . .
$$ | . . X X 1 4 6 . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

To be honest, whites move at F16 looks really dumb but I ask because I've seen so many people do that. I thought I probably missed something.

_________________
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I think white shouldn't cut at 4 and continue the "joseki" as usual (Playing a hane on the second line), being happy that black gave him extra profit. I'd rather have the thickness, but that's just me.

More common is this:

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[go]$$Bc tenuki
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . 2 . . .
$$ | . . O O . . . . .
$$ | . . X X 1 . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

The reason for this joseki is so that black can get sente because in the usual 3-3 invasion white ends in sente. Black surrenders more and leaves white more open on the top but, in exchange, gets to tenuki.

_________________
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."
-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves

My thoughts:

The cut seems like an overplay to me, unless white is strong on the right or has the ladder.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . 5 . . .
$$ | . 7 O O 2 3 . . .
$$ | . . X X 1 4 6 . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

There's no need to play here, since threatens the group of three, not . Now, white's in trouble.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . .
$$ | 5 1 . . 3 X . . .
$$ | . X O O O X . 4 .
$$ | . 2 X X X O O . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Now white has to push through and cut in order to live:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . 7 X . 5 . 6 .
$$ | O O . . O X 2 3 4
$$ | . X O O O X 1 X .
$$ | . X X X X O O . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

And the result doesn't seem good for white.

Instead, white could play like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . 6 1 . . .
$$ | . 4 O O O X . . .
$$ | . 2 X X X O . . .
$$ | . 3 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

This doesn't seem bad for white, but I think is a mistake if black has the ladder. In that case, I think black should instead do:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc With the ladder in favor of black:
$$ ------------------
$$ | . 9 . c . 8 . . .
$$ | 0 4 a b . 6 7 . .
$$ | . 3 O O O X 1 . .
$$ | . 5 X X X O . . .
$$ | . . . . . 2 . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc Another variation
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . 0 . 9 . . .
$$ | 8 O . . . 6 7 . .
$$ | . X O O O X 1 . .
$$ | . X X X X O . . .
$$ | . . . . . 2 . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Maybe it goes like below if the ladder doesn't favor black?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . 3 O O O X X . .
$$ | . 1 X X X O . . .
$$ | . 2 . . . 5 . . .
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

This diagram doesn't look bad for white. Maybe black would prefer to descend to the second line for his first move if he doesn't have the ladder.

There's a lot of diagrams here for a complicated position, so I've probably made some mistakes.

_________________
We don't know who we are; we don't know where we are.
Each of us woke up one moment and here we were in the darkness.
We're nameless things with no memory; no knowledge of what went before,
No understanding of what is now, no knowledge of what will be.

Indeed, black 9 at 10 kills.

I should clarify that white's cut is just what I happen to come across. People for some reason love to play that cut. I always suspected that it was a bad move.

_________________
If you have any food related questions or thoughts, share them here viewtopic.php?f=8&t=10351

I saw this extension rather than hane in a pro game today (move 91):

http://www.go4go.net/go/games/sgfview/42133

The idea is black wants sente to kill off the lower side group. White pushes rather than slides so that when black does tenuki his follow up hane is more severe.