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 Post subject: Triple or quadruple ko?
Post #1 Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 10:00 am 
Oza

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I'm curious whether the league game today between Yi Se-tol and Jiang Weijie was treated as a triple ko or quadruple ko. If the latter I'd expect a bigger fuss about it.

In passing, this game shows once again that the rule about superko is ignored. This game was treated as void and replayed.

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 Post subject: Re: Triple or quadruple ko?
Post #2 Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 10:34 am 
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Can you post a game record?

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 Post subject: Re: Triple or quadruple ko?
Post #3 Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 10:57 am 
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Here is the first game


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 Post subject: Re: Triple or quadruple ko?
Post #4 Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 12:09 pm 
Oza

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John Fairbairn wrote:
I'm curious whether the league game today between Yi Se-tol and Jiang Weijie was treated as a triple ko or quadruple ko. If the latter I'd expect a bigger fuss about it.

In passing, this game shows once again that the rule about superko is ignored. This game was treated as void and replayed.


How can you ignore a rule that doesn't exist for the competition?

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 Post subject: Re: Triple or quadruple ko?
Post #5 Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 12:27 pm 
Oza

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John Fairbairn wrote:
I'm curious whether the league game today between Yi Se-tol and Jiang Weijie was treated as a triple ko or quadruple ko.

Okkon Kim of Baduk TV calls it a "Double ko and two 0.5 kos." on his Facebook page.

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 Post subject: Re: Triple or quadruple ko?
Post #6 Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 1:32 pm 
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Just to clarify, the E10/F10 ko doesn't really matter right? That's just a 1 point ko, it's the double ko at R7/8 and T7/8 combined with the critical ko at A1/2 that caused an impasse right? Because if either of those groups die that player loses?

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 Post subject: Re: Triple or quadruple ko?
Post #7 Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 1:33 pm 
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Shawn Ligocki wrote:
Just to clarify, the E10/F10 ko doesn't really matter right? That's just a 1 point ko, it's the double ko at R7/8 and T7/8 combined with the critical ko at A1/2 that caused an impasse right? Because if either of those groups die that player loses?


Hm, actually I guess it's quite close score if White loses the double ko group. I can't read this well enough, is it close enough that that 1 point ko decides the game?

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 Post subject: Re: Triple or quadruple ko?
Post #8 Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 1:55 pm 
Oza

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Quote:
How can you ignore a rule that doesn't exist for the competition?


I no longer try to keep abreast of the wrinkles but as I understand it superko does exist as a rule in Chinese Go Association rules. It's just that nobody seems to take any notice of it usually. Macelee may be able to explain the finer points.

A practical point is that if Chinese players ignore the rule, then should those playing under AGA and similar rules do likewise?

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 Post subject: Re: Triple or quadruple ko?
Post #9 Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 2:00 pm 
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FWIW, on a study trip to China we (European amateur) students had to explain the superko rule to our (Chinese professional) teachers.

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 Post subject: Re: Triple or quadruple ko?
Post #10 Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 2:02 pm 
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Shawn Ligocki wrote:
... is it close enough that that 1 point ko decides the game?

Seems so.

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 Post subject: Re: Triple or quadruple ko?
Post #11 Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 2:19 pm 
Oza

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John Fairbairn wrote:
Quote:
How can you ignore a rule that doesn't exist for the competition?


I no longer try to keep abreast of the wrinkles but as I understand it superko does exist as a rule in Chinese Go Association rules. It's just that nobody seems to take any notice of it usually. Macelee may be able to explain the finer points.

A practical point is that if Chinese players ignore the rule, then should those playing under AGA and similar rules do likewise?


Uberdude wrote:
FWIW, on a study trip to China we (European amateur) students had to explain the superko rule to our (Chinese professional) teachers.


I always thought that superko was a western invention because western players did not like the idea of an unresolved game. I am surprised that it would be part of the Chinese rules but these two comments seem to imply that it is still not part of the oriental way of thinking about the game.

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 Post subject: Re: Triple or quadruple ko?
Post #12 Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 10:58 pm 
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A rough translation to the relevant section of the Chinese rule:

Repeated board positions (such as triple ko, quadrupal ko, eternal life etc) are forbidden in principle. Depending on tournament, these games may be declared as void, draw or replay ordered.

So it is incorrect to say that the Chinese players simply ignore the rule.

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 Post subject: Re: Triple or quadruple ko?
Post #13 Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 11:02 pm 
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macelee wrote:
A rough translation to the relevant section of the Chinese rule:

Repeated board positions (such as triple ko, quadrupal ko, eternal life etc) are forbidden in principle. Depending on tournament, these games may be declared as void, draw or replay ordered.

So it is incorrect to say that the Chinese players simply ignore the rule.


Here is another translation at http://home.snafu.de/jasiek/c2002.pdf

"Triple Ko, quadruple Ko, eternal life Ko, two-stone Ko, etc., are rare repetitions of the same shape on the whole board which are in principle forbidden

Depending on the type of tournament, it is possible to make alternative rules, for example: no result, tie or additional competition. "

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 Post subject: Re: Triple or quadruple ko?
Post #14 Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2014 10:43 am 
Oza
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Has superko rule ever been used?

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 Post subject: Re: Triple or quadruple ko?
Post #15 Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2014 11:26 am 
Judan

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Concerning professionals, superko has been used in Ing-I Rules, Chinese Rules (for sending-2-returning-1 for sure, also CEGO), Japanese 1949 Rules (in the text only).

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 Post subject: Re: Triple or quadruple ko?
Post #16 Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2014 1:07 pm 
Oza
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RobertJasiek wrote:
Concerning professionals, superko has been used in Ing-I Rules, Chinese Rules (for sending-2-returning-1 for sure, also CEGO), Japanese 1949 Rules (in the text only).


Do you have game records of any where superko has come into effect?

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