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 Post subject: South Africa's request to join the EGF
Post #1 Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2014 2:19 pm 
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This was the text of the request we sent to the EGF earlier this year. I gather the topic will be discussed at the next EGF general meeting.

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Dear executive members of the EGF

We would like to explore the possibility of South Africa, and potentially other African countries, joining the EGF. We feel a keen urge to participate more actively in the global go community, and we believe that joining the EGF would be an effective way to meet that desire.

Currently, Africa has no continental body, and the likelihood of such a body ever being formed is very small. There are only three IGF member countries (South Africa, Morocco and Madagascar) in Africa, of which South Africa is by far the most active country (and by the standards of the larger EGF members even that activity is relatively small). There is at present no point in forming an African body, as South Africa is by far the major influence in African go. For example, when we participated in the Toyota-Densa Oza tournaments (last held in 2008), South Africa was tasked with handling the African aspect of the event.

We currently have about 100 active players, of which about 15 are dan level, the strongest being Victor Chow 7d, who is probably well known to some of you. We believe that having formal access to some of the events that the EGF organises, such as the Pandanet Go European Team Championship, would significantly spur interest in go within our country.

South Africa could also consider hosting some events. While the cost of flights to South Africa would probably rule out using South Africa as a venue for the European Go Congress, perhaps some other events could be considered. We do have experience of hosting significant tournaments such as the Oza mentioned above, and of course, South Africa is an excellent tourist destination with many other attractions beyond Go.

This expansion of the EGF would also be in line with the practice that many international organizations adopt, which is to set up an EMEA division rather than separate Europe and Africa (and Middle East) divisions. This reflects the geographic proximity as well as the time zone equivalence – South Africa’s time zone is GMT+2, the same as Central European Summer Time. Furthermore, we understand that there is already some precedence for flexibility in the definition of European, as countries such as Israel and Kazakhstan are currently members of the EGF.

If this proposal meets with your interest, we would need to discuss the next steps to reach this goal.

We've taken a brief look at your constitution, and it's not clear whether it would allow you to add a non-European country without amendments. We also don't know what the level of support would be within your membership, or how you would gauge that. If direct membership is not feasible or desired, is there any other form of affiliation which you would suggest which could lead to closer cooperation?

There would also be some practical issues to debate, for instance, whether South African players would be allowed to compete for representation at international tournaments as an EGF representative. In this case, it may entirely depend on the organizers and sponsors of the tournament in question. A related topic would be whether South African players would be eligible for the new CEGO Go Academy system.

Further information about South African Go, and in particular, activities of the South African Go Association, are available at http://www.sagoclubs.co.za/saga (the menu item on the left named “SAGA” will expand to show extensive details about our organisation).


This has been mentioned on the boards before. Javaness in particular has asked some pertinent questions:

Javaness2 wrote:
I don't think that Europe, by which I mean the EGF, has the ability, or the remit, to develop the game in Africa.


This similar question was asked on the EGF forum (possibly also by Javaness2)

Quote:
I would be all for allowing South Africa (SA) playing in the Team league - but I would worry that SA joining the EGF would probably not be the best way to encourage the development of Go in Africa. Shouldn't we, or the IGF, be encouraging the formation of an African Go Federation?


I think both are good questions. To some extent they are covered by the initial request. This is not a request to the EGF to take on the burden of growing the game in Africa. It's reflection of the current reality that Go doesn't really exist in Africa, and we in South Africa strongly wish to participate more actively in the Go community.

If the EGF or the IGF want to encourage the formation of an African go federation, that would be fine. I think the best way to do this would be in the form we are proposing - including interested countries within the umbrella of the EGF, at least initially, until there are enough strong members to feasibly separate. The alternative strategy of sending money and people and hoping for the best is another possibility, but there's no plausible way of sustaining something like this at the moment.

Please ask any other questions.

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 Post subject: Re: South Africa's request to join the EGF
Post #2 Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2014 9:22 pm 
Judan

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Africa, of which South Africa is by far the most active country [...] We currently have about 100 active players


How to measure this activity and what is it? For comparison, I have heard that Madagascar has ca. 200 active players.

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 Post subject: Re: South Africa's request to join the EGF
Post #3 Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2014 11:06 pm 
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Charles Matthews taught the game to a lot of people in Uganda - I wonder if anyone ever followed up on his work...

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 Post subject: Re: South Africa's request to join the EGF
Post #4 Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 3:20 am 
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RobertJasiek wrote:
Quote:
Africa, of which South Africa is by far the most active country [...] We currently have about 100 active players


How to measure this activity and what is it? For comparison, I have heard that Madagascar has ca. 200 active players.


There are various ways of measuring it, I guess. Our measure is of players actively participating in club and tournament activities (virtual and real world). This is probably an underestimate, but presumably a consistent under-estimate across all countries.

That Madagascar has 200 active players is quite hard to believe. Do you recall where you heard this? We have reached out to them periodically, most recently with regard to an African representative for the world pair go champs, but we didn't hear anything back from them. We've also offered them (and other African countries) technical and infrastructure support, but we haven't been taken up on this.

Of course, in this Internet age, it's a lot easier to play each other and even to run tournaments (e.g. on KGS), but in our experience the extent of Internet capabilities is very variable. This may seem odd to first world countries, but it's a real issue in most of Africa.

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 Post subject: Re: South Africa's request to join the EGF
Post #5 Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 3:26 am 
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Javaness2 wrote:
Charles Matthews taught the game to a lot of people in Uganda - I wonder if anyone ever followed up on his work...


I do recall reading about Charles' work in Uganda. Unfortunately, in the absence of any formal structures that can sustain these initiatives, at best they are planting seeds that you hope will grow into something over time. Even for South Africa, it's incredibly difficult to follow through on any substantial initiatives, as we have an all-volunteer board (council) and of course very limited funds.

For now we stick to the basics, trying (and succeeding) to do at least the following consistently

sourcing and supplying stones and boards
sourcing and supplying go books and other training material
organizing tournaments
maintaining a rating system
maintaining a membership database and gathering subscriptions
selecting WAGC/KPMC/other representatives

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 Post subject: Re: South Africa's request to join the EGF
Post #6 Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 4:31 am 
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quantumf wrote:
That Madagascar has 200 active players is quite hard to believe. Do you recall where you heard this?


From Madagascar's representative at the KPMC 2009 or 2010. However, I do not know how "active" those players are. Maybe most of them are just playing friendly games.

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 Post subject: Re: South Africa's request to join the EGF
Post #7 Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 4:41 am 
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RobertJasiek wrote:
From Madagascar's representative at the KPMC 2009 or 2010. However, I do not know how "active" those players are. Maybe most of them are just playing friendly games.


I also have a vague memory of a group of African players (maybe Madagascar?) that were "discovered" in the mid-1990's when they all of a sudden started playing on IGS. A bit like finding a lost tribe or something.

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 Post subject: Re: South Africa's request to join the EGF
Post #8 Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 5:15 am 
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And explorer greets them with "Ah, Dr Living Stone, I presume?"

They were probably pupils of Wimmer and so had pro lessons, unlike most of us.


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 Post subject: Re: South Africa's request to join the EGF
Post #9 Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 6:37 am 
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John Fairbairn wrote:
They were probably pupils of Wimmer and so had pro lessons, unlike most of us.


Or perhaps a pro father*? ;-)

* See http://pokspace.goverband.at/essays/wimmer_e.htm


Last edited by Uberdude on Mon Jun 16, 2014 4:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: South Africa's request to join the EGF
Post #10 Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 7:11 am 
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Uberdude wrote:
John Fairbairn wrote:
They were probably pupils of Wimmer and so had pro lessons, unlike most of us.


Or perhaps a pro father? ;-)


If he did father 200 players then he really would be a pro at fatherhood.

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 Post subject: Re: South Africa's request to join the EGF
Post #11 Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 3:45 pm 
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Does South Africa's go community have any sort of requirements that they need to meet before the EGF can let them become a member? If so, what are they?

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 Post subject: Re: South Africa's request to join the EGF
Post #12 Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 6:33 pm 
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moboy78 wrote:
Does South Africa's go community have any sort of requirements that they need to meet before the EGF can let them become a member? If so, what are they?


I don't understand why the main requirement would not be to be in Europe.

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 Post subject: Re: South Africa's request to join the EGF
Post #13 Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 6:55 pm 
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DrStraw wrote:
moboy78 wrote:
Does South Africa's go community have any sort of requirements that they need to meet before the EGF can let them become a member? If so, what are they?


I don't understand why the main requirement would not be to be in Europe.

Apparently it isn't, since countries like Israel and Kazakhstan are allowed in the EGF. I would've assumed being a country that is located in Europe would be the only requirement to be a part of the European Go Federation, but since that doesn't appear to be the case, I got curious and posted my previous question.

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 Post subject: Re: South Africa's request to join the EGF
Post #14 Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 11:19 pm 
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There is this... http://www.eurogofed.org/egf/questions.txt

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 Post subject: Re: South Africa's request to join the EGF
Post #15 Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 11:33 pm 
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Javaness2 wrote:


Yes, we have received this set of questions, and are busy completing it. I gather the primary purpose of this questionnaire is to establish that we (the South African Go Association) are the main (or only) go body in the country - apparently there have been instances when newly founded go organizations have attempted to join the EGF on behalf of a country without the knowledge or support of existing go organizations. I don't have any details, mind you.

moboy78, apart from completing that set of questions, I'm not (yet) aware of any specific requirements that we need meet. Should the proposal meet with some sort of approval, I would expect there to be some changes imposed on us - for instance, we may need to alter our constitution, or modify they way we run tournaments.

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 Post subject: Re: South Africa's request to join the EGF
Post #16 Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 12:46 am 
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Supposing the EGF would adopt African members at all (I do not know when - i.e., BEFORE the motion mentioned below - and how such can be decided, except that there is a deadline of 3 months for major motions by already EXISTING EGF members before the Annual General Meeting of the EGF), it will be necessary that a South African representative (proving his delegation right) of the SA Go Association will be present at the Annual General Meeting of the EGF when the motion shall be voted. Of course, such a written motion must be sent to the EGF Committee (or its secretary) in time, and I guess that the EGF should confirm that the form of the motion is sufficient.

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 Post subject: Re: South Africa's request to join the EGF
Post #17 Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 1:53 am 
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I think this is an excellent idea. As more and more of the go world moves online, time zone distances are becoming more and more important, relative to physical distance. I would love to see a similar move in the Americas, with North and South America running joint internet events. E.g. the AGA city league could be reformed/expanded to accept teams from South America.

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 Post subject: Re: South Africa's request to join the EGF
Post #18 Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 2:30 am 
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HermanHiddema wrote:
I think this is an excellent idea. As more and more of the go world moves online, time zone distances are becoming more and more important, relative to physical distance. I would love to see a similar move in the Americas, with North and South America running joint internet events. E.g. the AGA city league could be reformed/expanded to accept teams from South America.


South America is actually quite far East: most of Brazil and Argentina are GMT-3 which is closer to central Europe (GMT+1) than West coast USA (GMT-8). :D

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 Post subject: Re: South Africa's request to join the EGF
Post #19 Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 2:46 am 
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Uberdude wrote:
South America is actually quite far East: most of Brazil and Argentina are GMT-3 which is closer to central Europe (GMT+1) than West coast USA (GMT-8). :D


True, but not an entirely fair comparison to take the easternmost time zone in South America and compare it to one of the closest European ones and one of the furthest North American ones.

The two European time zones with the bulk of the population are GMT+1 and GMT+2, while the two North American time zones with the bulk of the population are GMT-5 and GMT-6, so the easternmost GMT-3 time zone in South America is definitely closer to North America than it is to Europe.

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 Post subject: Re: South Africa's request to join the EGF
Post #20 Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 2:56 am 
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RobertJasiek wrote:
Supposing the EGF would adopt African members at all (I do not know when - i.e., BEFORE the motion mentioned below - and how such can be decided, except that there is a deadline of 3 months for major motions by already EXISTING EGF members before the Annual General Meeting of the EGF), it will be necessary that a South African representative (proving his delegation right) of the SA Go Association will be present at the Annual General Meeting of the EGF when the motion shall be voted. Of course, such a written motion must be sent to the EGF Committee (or its secretary) in time, and I guess that the EGF should confirm that the form of the motion is sufficient.


The proposal was sent to the EGF executive earlier this year (I think around February). The secretary has (very recently) confirmed that it is on the agenda for the AGM meeting next month. At this stage there are no plans to have anyone from the South African committee physically present at the AGM. That would be a huge cost that would be very hard to justify.

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