this is a game i just played..
i think i win out of luck.. black can just play safe somewhere in the middle
i need help in reviewing the game..
thanks
im playing as white

Hi Ades,

is not a mistake at these levels, but it's a little heavy.
Better to reply instead with a one-space jump D6,
or a keima C6.

The - exchange is pretty bad for W.
You make a broken shape for yourself.
Instead, in this case you read the empty triangle E4.
If B cuts at F4, you jump back to B4 and fight with B.

See also toothpaste

After your local shape is completely crushed by B.

connect at C7. Letting B ponnuki with C7, your shape is crushed again.

capture at C7 is the only move for B.

wrong atari (you send B out), bad habit.
Just connect directly at G7, which is what you did on anyway.
Do you see your atari only helps B and does nothing good for you ?

is gote: B needs not reply. Do you see why B does not need
to connect on ? B will tenuki.

is very strange. Why ?

same bad habit atari as .

overplay: you have to fix your cut at K9,
which B exploits on .

Hi sir..
im really thankful for the review


a question, whats better direction for
thanks again before..
i'll surely take a look at my game again with the review

I would jump to Tengen.

Yes, instead of the L9 atari , K10 is probably better.

ah okay.. i think i misunderstood the review comment
i thought i gave B atari in the wrong direction
thanks for the reply

The atari was not good for you. It's bad habit, like — you must first evaluate if it's good or bad for you.

Really? I'm not 100% sure, but I think it's good and better than jump.


This is certainly true.

The following is somewhat advanced for Ades at 14k but I think it's an important point about understanding not just following proverbs. Sure if he just follows Ed's principles he can be 1k and that would be a great achievement for now, but to progress beyond that level you need to understand proverbs more deeply and sometimes break them (or realise the phrasing of the proverb omits many important conditions and so is not applicable here).

It's good to understand the reasons behind why the atari is a bad habit when cut like that. The most important one it makes your opponent stronger (he gets more liberties when he extends to m8) and hurts the cut stone (L7). If when you jumped black was going to extend at m8 anyway then atari was probably a bad move (you jumped, he extended now you have sente and can choose to play l9 if you so wish or more likely play somewhere else). But what if black wouldn't play m8 if you jumped? Here black would extend at the l9 key point, threatening to push and cut. Let's say white defends at j11. If black would now take gote to capture the cutting stone at m7 then yes perhaps atari was bad. But m7 would be a slack move for black, neglecting the fact he has big strength below (k5 m3 etc) so it would be a huge oveprlay for white to extend at m7 and try to save his cutting stone. So black could likely play on a more ambitious scale, jumping to m11 perhaps. Yes this leaves behind some bad aji of m7 which white can try to use to sabaki inside black's moyo later, but directly running it is probably just making a dead group.

The 2nd push at m9 was a mistake though, that should be the hanging connection. Then white can aim to play n9 or n10, using the aji of l7 to help his outside stones. Black may well turn at m9 to prevent that immediately. Here's a pro game example of this technique in action, starting at move 80:

You misunderstand my position: I think proverbs are traps.

Principles and general guidelines are all double-edged swords,
and are very often traps. You know this.

You also know that we must always look at both
the local and global situations and decide for the exact board.

As I wrote here (post 54) two days ago,
proverbs, rules, or rules of thumbs may be OK for beginners,
or for "beginning stages," which we reach repeatedly
when we encounter new, unfamiliar areas. But eventually,
we must free ourselves from these rules, proverbs, and guidelines,
lest they become a hindrance to progress.

Right, and I think you fell into the trap

(I don't mean this as a criticism of you, I do it too of course. I'd like it if stronger players pointed out where I do it but unfortunately there aren't many active here).

Yes, we all do. What is strange is your phrasing:What do you mean by that ?

If I suggested a bad move, which happens all the time,
fine, by all means point it out.

What I take issue is you imply I advocate some "principles"
that are bad to "just follow" blindly. Or did you mean
something else ?

im really confused on whats happening here

but i always try to search for the reason and essence of the opinion/comment/review
i fully understand that almost everything have special exception
im sorry if any of my post inflict a conflict

Hi Ades,

Absolutely no reason for you to apologize.
You have done nothing wrong in this thread.

Please continue to enjoy Go and post your games here for comments.

can someone help me again..
my game are getting messy and bad looking these days
my stone also tend to be scattered
im struggling to raise my rank by tsumego and also go books
but im feeling that im ruining my game more and more

status since the game i posted here
13 game
2 win
9 lost
2 enemy quit game

Hi Ades,

For , did you read the Q5 atari ?
( See again toothpaste )

S5. Imagine at S5. See above Sensei's link, again.

S5. See the same Sensei's link, again.

Hi, Edlee

yes, but what comes in my mind was saving those few stones and cant let white caged it

i was thinking that tenuki give me more point

all the time i wasn't aware that white can toothpaste from the side
next time i'll try to read for the possibilities

Let's look at the result if you atari Q5 on .

Let's look at the result if at S5.

Hi EdLee
ok