Non standard 9 or 10 stones handicap placement

lightvector · **#81**

If there is a superko rule in effect (positional and situational are both fine), it's possible to break symmetry by setting up two independent kos which Black will mirror to make four kos in total. Then if White begins capturing in the kos, Black will be the first player forced to deviate (I think).

Without a superko rule, two ladders that circle the board is another way. Here's a proof of concept:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Initial position $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . O O X X X . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . X O O . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . | $$ | . . X O X . . . X X X . . . . X O . . | $$ | . O O X X . . . X , X . . . O O X X . | $$ | . . X O . . . . X X X . . . O X O . . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X X O . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . O O O X X . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc The ladders begin $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . O O X X X . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . X O O . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . | $$ | . . X O X . . . X X X . . . . X O . . | $$ | . O O X X . . . X , X . . . O O X X . | $$ | . . X O . . . . X X X . . . O X O . . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X X O 3 . . . . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . O O O X X . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc By this point, black is doomed. $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . O O X X X . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . O X X O O . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O X X O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O X X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X X O . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . O O . 4 1 . . . . . . O . X . . . | $$ | . . X O X 5 . . X X X . . . . X O . . | $$ | . O O X X . . . X , X . . . O O X X . | $$ | . . X O . . . . X X X . . . O X O . . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . . . . 2 3 . X X . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . X O O X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O O X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X O O X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X X O O X . . . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . O O O X X . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc The end position $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . O O X X X . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . O X X O O . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O X X O . O X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O X X O . X O O X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X X O . . . X O O X . . . . | $$ | . . O O X X O . . . . . X O O X . . . | $$ | . . X O X O . . X X X . . X O X O . . | $$ | . O O X X O . . X , X . . X O O X X . | $$ | . . X O X O . . X X X . . X O X O . . | $$ | . . . O X X O . . . . . X O O X X . . | $$ | . . . . O X X O . . . X O O X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O X X O . X O O X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O X . X O O X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . 1 X X O O X . . . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . O O O X X . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

I tried to carefully set up the configurations at the ends of the ladders so that once the ladders get started, even if Black deviates such as by playing out the ladder faster on one side than the other, White can ensure both that his or her own stones escape and that Black's stones are captured (I think).

Specifically, until White's stones manage to link up to L16 (so that capturing Black's stones also gains liberties for White's own stones), White's strategy is to run from the right ladder if in atari, otherwise capture Black's stones if Black failed to run on the left, otherwise play the next atari if Black did run on the left.

In practice, if Black is willing to deviate at a good moment, setting either of these things up is not easy and probably takes careful planning to make sure Black's deviation isn't too damaging. Especially if White hasn't prepared what to do ahead of time.

shapenaji · **#82**

lightvector wrote:

I tried to carefully set up the configurations at the ends of the ladders so that once the ladders get started, even if Black deviates such as by playing out the ladder faster on one side than the other, White can ensure both that his or her own stones escape and that Black's stones are captured (I think).

Specifically, until White's stones manage to link up to L16 (so that capturing Black's stones also gains liberties for White's own stones), White's strategy is to run from the right ladder if in atari, otherwise capture Black's stones if Black failed to run on the left, otherwise play the next atari if Black did run on the left.[/hide]

In practice, if Black is willing to deviate at a good moment, setting either of these things up is not easy and probably takes careful planning to make sure Black's deviation isn't too damaging. Especially if White hasn't prepared what to do ahead of time.

That's a beautiful demo, not just because it illustrates the concept well, but also because all of the initial positions look perfectly reasonable.

Thanks for this! I hadn't thought about using superko either.

illluck · **#83**

@Lightvector: I have shamelessly used your diagram on Baidu Tieba, on which a similar position came up

http://tieba.baidu.com/p/3059051406

oca · **#84**

New idea : The 12 stones "Fibonacci shell (and slate?)"

topazg · **#85**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I seem to remember a pro saying that this is quite a lot harder to play against than the traditional placement stones, but that it was missing the point: High handicap games are typically learning/teaching games, not winning games, and that this placement defeats the purpose of a handicap game.

Mike Novack · **#86**

topazg wrote:

I seem to remember a pro saying that this is quite a lot harder to play against than the traditional placement stones, but that it was missing the point: High handicap games are typically learning/teaching games, not winning games, and that this placement defeats the purpose of a handicap game.

We could be even more precise in the sense of that. The traditional placement doesn't give a handicap in terms of defined territory in addition to influence. It is influence only and there is a reason for that (in terms of learning). Instead of this alternative arrangement if more than the effect of a standard nine stone handicap, adding some reverse komi would be a better way of giving some territory (in effect).

drmwc · **#87**

I somtimes play Go against CrazyStone on my tablet when I commute in. On a 19x19 board, I give it 4 stones since this generally results in me winning about 80% of the time. (I prefer winning against bots, but like to give them a fighting chance).

I've taken to playing a Great Wall strategy as white. It's surprisingly effective - over a sample of around 10 games, my winning record has jumped up to 100%.

For example:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , 5 . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . 3 , 8 . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I reckon white's already caught up half a stone here.

skydyr · **#88**

drmwc wrote:

I somtimes play Go against CrazyStone on my tablet when I commute in. On a 19x19 board, I give it 4 stones since this generally results in me winning about 80% of the time. (I prefer winning against bots, but like to give them a fighting chance).

I've taken to playing a Great Wall strategy as white. It's surprisingly effective - over a sample of around 10 games, my winning record has jumped up to 100%.

For example:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , 5 . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . 3 , 8 . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I reckon white's already caught up half a stone here.

As black, how would you play instead to prevent that?

drmwc · **#89**

To prevent it, plop a stone somewhere in the formation before White completes it. This is pretty easy to achieve in a 4-stone game. For example:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . 2 . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . . . 4 . . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I'm not keen on Crazy Stone's shimari strategy.Handicap go as balck, with standard stone placement, works best with bold play in the opening.

oca · **#90**

finally, just this one...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

IfYouHaveLostFourCornersResign, so Thanks you for the game :mrgreen:

RBerenguel · **#91**

oca wrote:

finally, just this one...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

IfYouHaveLostFourCornersResign, so Thanks you for the game :mrgreen:

I remember also reading or hearing somewhere: If you have four corners resign (as in "your opp is so thick in the center you are already lost")

oca · **#92**

RBerenguel wrote:

I remember also reading or hearing somewhere: If you have four corners resign (as in "your opp is so thick in the center you are already lost")

Yes, I read that somewhere in a book too (but I don't remember which one...). if I remember well, a pro (but I don't remember which one too

) was winning a lot without having any corner and that lead to "If you have four corners resign"...

oca · **#93**

ok found it again... the book is "The Nihon Ki-in Hanbook of Proverbs" and the pro is "Takemiya Masaki"

RBerenguel · **#94**

oca wrote:

ok found it again... the book is "The Nihon Ki-in Hanbook of Proverbs" and the pro is "Takemiya Masaki"

I didn't read it there, though (don't have this book). I'd bet for Kageyama, maybe. Or Sensei's, sure

Bonobo · **#95**

As it is said that Go proverbs only hold for Black, shouldn’t it rather be so that BLACK should resign if Black either lost or won all four corners?

<edit>

Ah, there it is: Black should resign if one player has four corners

</edit>

oca · **#96**

A bit off topic, but as we are with proverbs... In french, we have these two proverbs :

- 2 c'est assez 3 c'est trop (2 is enougth, 3 is too much)
- Jamais 2, sans 3 (never 2 without 3)

That's really convinent as you can choose the one that best fit the situation :lol:

RBerenguel · **#97**

oca wrote:

A bit off topic, but has we are with proverbs... In french, we have these two proverbs :

- 2 c'est assez 3 c'est trop (2 is enougth, 3 is too much)
- Jamais 2, sans 3 (never 2 without 3)

That's really convinent as you can choose the one that best fit the situation :lol:

Funny: both these exist almost literally in Spanish! (Well, not surprising I guess, but I don't know many French proverbs)

Bill Spight · **#98**

RBerenguel wrote:

oca wrote:

A bit off topic, but has we are with proverbs... In french, we have these two proverbs :

- 2 c'est assez 3 c'est trop (2 is enougth, 3 is too much)
- Jamais 2, sans 3 (never 2 without 3)

That's really convinent as you can choose the one that best fit the situation :lol:

Funny: both these exist almost literally in Spanish! (Well, not surprising I guess, but I don't know many French proverbs)

Menage a 2.5.

Non standard 9 or 10 stones handicap placement

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