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Offline MountainGo
 Post subject: Re: Batookovich #1: topazg vs MountainGo
Post #101 Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 1:22 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Score - B: 53, W: 19
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . X W . . @ . . . . |
$$ | . X m O . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O . . O X X @ . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X O O . . |
$$ | X . . . X X O X X O p |
$$ | . X # X . O O X O . . |
$$ | X O O O X . . X . O . |
$$ | . O m O # . . X O X X |
$$ | O X X O O X . B O O . |
$$ | . . X . O X . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]
Sorry I haven't played in a few days. I'll try to finish the game out without any more delays.
I didn't do as much analysis as I normally would here, because I feel guilty for not playing a move in a while. But basically there are only about four major endgame areas right now (the other three in the upper left), all of them gote for me, and this is the biggest. The continuation here is now my sente due to the aji of my two dead stones.

p.s. The upper left is really complicated, especially with that little p. It's more than I'm willing to completely figure out.
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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: Batookovich #1: topazg vs MountainGo
Post #102 Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 3:05 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Score - B: 61, W: 28
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . . |
$$ | . . X W . . @ . . . . |
$$ | . X m O . . . X O . . |
$$ | 2 1 O . . O X X @ . . |
$$ | 4 3 . 7 . O X O O . . |
$$ | X . . . X X O X X O 6 |
$$ | . X # X . O O X O . . |
$$ | X O O O X . . X . O . |
$$ | . O m O # . . X O X X |
$$ | O X X O O X . X O O . |
$$ | . . X . O X . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]


Getting this game finished now .. looks like I can't win sadly:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Score - B: 69, W: 40
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . B B W O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . @ W . . . |
$$ | . X m O . . W . O . . |
$$ | X O O . W O . . @ . . |
$$ | X O . O B O W O O . . |
$$ | X B W W X X O X X O X |
$$ | B X # X B O O X O W . |
$$ | X O O O X B B X B O W |
$$ | W O m O # . . X O X X |
$$ | O X X O O X . X O O . |
$$ | . . X . O X . B B W . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]


6 points behind, and no way to catch up!
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Offline MountainGo
 Post subject: Re: Batookovich #1: topazg vs MountainGo
Post #103 Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 8:24 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Score - B: 67, W: 33
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . a . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X W . . @ 8 . . . |
$$ | . X m O . . 0 X O . . |
$$ | X O O . . O X X @ . . |
$$ | X O . O . O X O O . . |
$$ | X . . . X X O X X O X |
$$ | . X # X . O O X O 2 . |
$$ | X O O O X 7 9 X 1 O 4 |
$$ | . O m O # . . X O X X |
$$ | O X X O O X . X O O 6 |
$$ | . . X . O X . . 3 5 . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]
Wow. It looks like I'm going to win by about 9 points. I guess I miscounted earlier (or else I am now).

I could play B1 in the lower left to assure seki, but I don't need to. The only thing White can try is B1 and D1 to turn it into a ko to try to kill me, but then he'll have to tenuki, and I'll kill him no matter what ko threat he plays. So it's just a seki as is, and I'll get to add a couple more stones at the end for free.
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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: Batookovich #1: topazg vs MountainGo
Post #104 Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 12:30 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Score - B: 67, W: 33
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . a . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X W . . @ 8 . . . |
$$ | . X m O . . 0 X O . . |
$$ | X O O . . O X X @ . . |
$$ | X O . O . O X O O . . |
$$ | X . . . X X O X X O X |
$$ | . X # X . O O X O 2 . |
$$ | X O O O X 7 9 X 1 O 6 |
$$ | . O m O # . . X O X X |
$$ | O X X O O X . X O O . |
$$ | . . X . O X . 5 3 4 . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]


As long as you are happy with this change, then I carry on to:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Score - B: 68, W: 39
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . 2 B 1 O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . @ O . . . |
$$ | . X m O . . O . O . . |
$$ | X O O . . O . . @ . . |
$$ | X O 7 O 3 O a O O . . |
$$ | X 6 5 4 X X O X X O X |
$$ | 8 X # X O O O X O O . |
$$ | X O O O X X X X X O O |
$$ | 9 O m O # . . X O X X |
$$ | O X X O O X . X O O . |
$$ | . . X . O X . X X O . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]


and then pass .. is this ok?

If so, final position:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Score - B: 74, W: 68
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | x x X X O O y y y y y |
$$ | x x X O y y @ O y y y |
$$ | x X m O y y O y O y y |
$$ | X O O y y O y y @ y y |
$$ | X O O O O O O O O y y |
$$ | X X O X X X O X X O z |
$$ | X X # X O O O X O O y |
$$ | X O O O X X X X X O O |
$$ | O O m O # x x X O z z |
$$ | O X X O O X x X O O y |
$$ | . . X . O X x X X O y |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]


Black wins by 6 points?
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Offline Jonas
 Post subject: Re: Batookovich #1: topazg vs MountainGo
Post #105 Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 12:59 am 
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Readable after the game:
Well okay, Black is winning anyway but I think there is still something on the lower side starting with Black 1:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Score - B: 68, W: 39
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . X X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O O . . . |
$$ | . X m O . . O . O . . |
$$ | X O O . . O . . O . . |
$$ | X O O O O O O O O . . |
$$ | X X O X X X O X X O X |
$$ | X X X X O O O X O O . |
$$ | X O O O X X X X X O O |
$$ | O O 1 O X . . X O X X |
$$ | O X X O O X . X O O . |
$$ | . . X . O X . X X O . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]


I think white sees this as a Seki but there is this ko when all outside liberties are filled, because black cant play at 'a' due to selfatari:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Score - B: 68, W: 39
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . X X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O O . . . |
$$ | . X m O . . O . O . . |
$$ | X O O . . O . . O . . |
$$ | X O O O O O O O O . . |
$$ | X X O X X X O X X O X |
$$ | X X X X O O O X O O . |
$$ | X O O O X X X X X O O |
$$ | O O X O X . . X O X X |
$$ | O X X O O X . X O O . |
$$ | 1 . X a O X . X X O . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]



If White reacts, black can build a nakade-shape:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Score - B: 68, W: 39
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . X X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O O . . . |
$$ | . X m O . . O . O . . |
$$ | X O O . . O . . O . . |
$$ | X O O O O O O O O . . |
$$ | X X O X X X O X X O X |
$$ | X X X X O O O X O O . |
$$ | X O O O X X X X X O O |
$$ | O O 1 O X . . X O X X |
$$ | O X X O O X . X O O . |
$$ | 2 3 X . O X . X X O . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]

This post by Jonas was liked by: MountainGo
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Offline MountainGo
 Post subject: Re: Batookovich #1: topazg vs MountainGo
Post #106 Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 7:54 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Score - B: 64, W: 30
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . @ . . . . |
$$ | . X m O . . . X O . . |
$$ | X O O . . O X X @ . . |
$$ | X O . O . O X O O 5 . |
$$ | X . . . X X O X X O X |
$$ | . X # X . O O X O O . |
$$ | X O O O X . . X X O . |
$$ | . O m O # . . X O X X |
$$ | O X X O O X . X O O . |
$$ | . . X . O X . . X O . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]
Oh dear, I'm pretty sure he just let me capture the corner. So a game that I was going to resign at one point becomes a game that I win by a lot. I'll take that as a lesson.
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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: Batookovich #1: topazg vs MountainGo
Post #107 Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 8:33 am 
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Yeah, that'll do me. Thanks for the game, I resign :)
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Offline MountainGo
 Post subject: Re: Batookovich #1: topazg vs MountainGo
Post #108 Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 10:23 am 
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Thanks for the game! As you'll see from my comments if you read them, I really thought I'd lost. Feel free to critique any of my move choices if you so fancy.
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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: Batookovich #1: topazg vs MountainGo
Post #109 Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 10:45 am 
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You played a really good game, Batoo is really very interesting. I'd made some poor choices early on, particularly with regards to how to handle base stones and plus points, and you followed up nicely. Particularly your handling of the corner sequences were good.

The one thing I would say is that it was worth getting D4 before me so that you can kill my group. Because of the lost fight in the top right, you are ko master. You can happily throw away the stones in my corner if you live with the other group, and if I respond to those ko threats you kill my corner. I was lucky that the position turned into a seki, but it wasn't enough.

I'm sorry for the lack of general comments in this game, and for that matter the other Malkovich game - I'm really burned out at the moment and debating whether I should be carrying on with the thing if I don't have the time and energy to do it properly. I've certainly been sold on Batoo though, a great idea of yours to play a game here :)
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Offline MountainGo
 Post subject: Re: Batookovich #1: topazg vs MountainGo
Post #110 Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 10:48 am 
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prokofiev wrote:
Looks very close, but taking the plus point at F11 is sente for black now!
I'm not so sure...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . 4 . 2 . 1 . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . @ . . . . |
$$ | . X m O . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O . . O X X @ . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X O O . . |
$$ | X . . . X X O X X O p |
$$ | . X # X . O O X O . . |
$$ | X O O O X . . X . O . |
$$ | . O m O # . . X W X X |
$$ | O X X O O X . 3 O O . |
$$ | . . X . O X . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]
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Offline prokofiev
 Post subject: Re: Batookovich #1: topazg vs MountainGo
Post #111 Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 10:55 am 
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MountainGo wrote:
prokofiev wrote:
Looks very close, but taking the plus point at F11 is sente for black now!
I'm not so sure...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . 4 . 2 . 1 . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . @ . . . . |
$$ | . X m O . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O . . O X X @ . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X O O . . |
$$ | X . . . X X O X X O p |
$$ | . X # X . O O X O . . |
$$ | X O O O X . . X . O . |
$$ | . O m O # . . X W X X |
$$ | O X X O O X . 3 O O . |
$$ | . . X . O X . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]


Good catch, thanks.
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Offline MountainGo
 Post subject: Re: Batookovich #1: topazg vs MountainGo
Post #112 Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 11:10 am 
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topazg wrote:
You played a really good game, Batoo is really very interesting. I'd made some poor choices early on, particularly with regards to how to handle base stones and plus points, and you followed up nicely. Particularly your handling of the corner sequences were good.
Thanks!
Quote:
The one thing I would say is that it was worth getting D4 before me so that you can kill my group. Because of the lost fight in the top right, you are ko master. You can happily throw away the stones in my corner if you live with the other group, and if I respond to those ko threats you kill my corner. I was lucky that the position turned into a seki, but it wasn't enough.
The thing is, as Jonas pointed out (and as I seem to have forgotten even though I see in my sgf for this game that I knew at the time), after your connection move, you're still not alive. And since I had sente, I saw that as a better result. What do you think?
Quote:
I've certainly been sold on Batoo though
Me too!
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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: Batookovich #1: topazg vs MountainGo
Post #113 Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 11:49 am 
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MountainGo wrote:
The thing is, as Jonas pointed out (and as I seem to have forgotten even though I see in my sgf for this game that I knew at the time), after your connection move, you're still not alive. And since I had sente, I saw that as a better result. What do you think?


Yeah, I'm not convinced. Obviously in his diagrams I'm not going to let you make the bulky five. So it's still a ko, and I'll respond by making sure you don't have a ko threat against the 4 stone group.

However, if you'd taken D4 just before I did then C3 actually puts a group of mine into atari, which means if you get B1 as well you guarantee making a bulky five and I'm simply dead. Then I have to trigger the ko fight myself straight away, at which point you capture first and those ko threats against the running top right group are lethal:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Score - B: 41, W: 23
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . @ . . . . |
$$ | . . m O . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O . . O X X @ . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X O O . . |
$$ | p . . . X X O X X O p |
$$ | . X # X . O O X O . . |
$$ | X O O 2 X . . X . . . |
$$ | . O 3 O # . . X m . . |
$$ | O X X O O X . . . . . |
$$ | 6 5 4 . 1 X . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Score - B: 41, W: 23
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . @ . . . . |
$$ | . . m O . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O . . O X X @ . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X O O . . |
$$ | p . . . X X O X X O p |
$$ | . X # X . O O X O . . |
$$ | X O O 2 X . . X . . . |
$$ | . O m O # . . X m . . |
$$ | O X X O O X . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 4 . 1 X . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Score - B: 41, W: 23
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . @ . . . . |
$$ | . . m O . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O . . O X X @ . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X O O . . |
$$ | p . . . X X O X X O p |
$$ | . X # X . O O X O . . |
$$ | X O O 2 X . . X . . . |
$$ | . O m O # . . X m . . |
$$ | O X X O O X . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 3 . 1 X . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]
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Offline freegame
 Post subject: Re: Batookovich #1: topazg vs MountainGo
Post #114 Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 5:10 pm 
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That last bit went way to fast for my likes. (Having multiple moves in one "turn" still seems weird to me)
Anyway. I enjoyed following the game and the comments from both of you.

If any of you is interested in playing another BatooKovich feel free to ask me for one. :)

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Author of: The Next Move a book for 15-3kyu players.
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Offline MountainGo
 Post subject: Re: Batookovich #1: topazg vs MountainGo
Post #115 Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 5:11 pm 
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topazg wrote:
However, if you'd taken D4 just before I did then C3 actually puts a group of mine into atari
But then I've paid two gote moves and 10 points. I'm not really disagreeing with you per se, I'm just not seeing it. This is the kind of stuff that drives me bonkers. I'm sure I'll be able to understand this stuff confidently one day.
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Offline MountainGo
 Post subject: Re: Batookovich #1: topazg vs MountainGo
Post #116 Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 5:16 pm 
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freegame wrote:
(Having multiple moves in one "turn" still seems weird to me)
Just think of them as triggers that the player doesn't bother to hide because they're so obvious. As you saw, the other player is always free to object.

Perhaps it is silly to do more than 6 or so moves at once, though, as, clearly, what is inevitable in one's eyes isn't necessarily so in the other's.
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