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 Post subject: Where can i find difficult sicho (ladder)?
Post #1 Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 11:20 am 
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Hi.

I lost a game because I read so bad one sicho... It isn't new for me, I usually lose games because there are some figure as ladder. ANd I said that the ladder boycott my games because I lose sente to answer a false ladder-breaker or I play bad answer to ladder-breaker (I usually try no close sicho and try play in a wake of the breaker).

If I had a good english, I can comment more position where I lose because a wild sicho appreared. But I lose to read bad sicho, I make a lot of errors but the most important is with ladder.


I am not afraid, but I want be good when I fight which a some ladder.

This game is the last that I lost for my problem with reading sicho (althought I know that I go to fail, I wanted try it because when I see my fail, it was so later).


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Post #2 Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 11:26 am 
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Hi Darsey,

:w10: joseki is J17.

:w18: this cut is too early. Just B3.

:b19: B3.

:b27: B2.


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 Post subject: Re: Where can i find difficult sicho (ladder)?
Post #3 Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 11:51 am 
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Darsey wrote:
... a wild sicho appreared.


Attachments:
wild shicho.png
wild shicho.png [ 69.6 KiB | Viewed 12451 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: Where can i find difficult sicho (ladder)?
Post #4 Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 1:35 pm 
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Oh... thanks for show my errors.

I say "wild sicho appeared" thinking in pokémon :P



I was searching tsumegos and things to study:

http://senseis.xmp.net/?LadderProblemsAndExercises
http://senseis.xmp.net/?LongestLadderProblem


But, where can I find more?

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 Post subject: Re: Where can i find difficult sicho (ladder)?
Post #5 Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 1:38 pm 
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Hi Darsey, RJ answered your question here: http://lifein19x19.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=11019 .


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 Post subject: Re: Where can i find difficult sicho (ladder)?
Post #6 Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 1:50 pm 
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Oh, very thanks.

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 Post subject: Re: Where can i find difficult sicho (ladder)?
Post #7 Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 2:08 pm 
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Maybe you'll enjoy this one:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black to play
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | X . O . X X . O . X . O . X X . O . X |
$$ | . O . . O O . . O . O . X O O X . O . |
$$ | O . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | X O . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . O X |
$$ | X O . . . O . . O O O . . O . . . O X |
$$ | . . . . . . O . X X X . O . . . . . . |
$$ | O . . . . . . O . O . O . . . . . . O |
$$ | . O . . . O X . O . O . X O . . . O . |
$$ | X . O X X O X O . X . O X O X X O . X |
$$ | . O . . . O X . O . O . X O . . . O . |
$$ | O . . . . . . O . O . O . . . . . . O |
$$ | . . . . . . O . X X X . O . . . . . . |
$$ | X O . . . O . . O O O . . O . . . O X |
$$ | X O . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . O X |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | O . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O |
$$ | . O . . O O . . O . O . . O O . . O . |
$$ | X . O . X X . O . X . O . X X . O . X |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If you'd like more, please let me know.

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 Post subject: Re: Where can i find difficult sicho (ladder)?
Post #8 Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 2:09 pm 
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Thomas Wolf's Mastering Ladders


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 Post subject: Re: Where can i find difficult sicho (ladder)?
Post #9 Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 4:31 pm 
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logan wrote:
Maybe you'll enjoy this one:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black to play
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | X . O . X X . O . X . O . X X . O . X |
$$ | . O . . O O . . O . O . X O O X . O . |
$$ | O . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | X O . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . O X |
$$ | X O . . . O . . O O O . . O . . . O X |
$$ | . . . . . . O . X X X . O . . . . . . |
$$ | O . . . . . . O . O . O . . . . . . O |
$$ | . O . . . O X . O . O . X O . . . O . |
$$ | X . O X X O X O . X . O X O X X O . X |
$$ | . O . . . O X . O . O . X O . . . O . |
$$ | O . . . . . . O . O . O . . . . . . O |
$$ | . . . . . . O . X X X . O . . . . . . |
$$ | X O . . . O . . O O O . . O . . . O X |
$$ | X O . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . O X |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | O . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O |
$$ | . O . . O O . . O . O . . O O . . O . |
$$ | X . O . X X . O . X . O . X X . O . X |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If you'd like more, please let me know.


I dont know what to do...

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 Post subject: Re: Where can i find difficult sicho (ladder)?
Post #10 Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 8:01 pm 
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Here is another one. :)



White to play. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Where can i find difficult sicho (ladder)?
Post #11 Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 1:08 am 
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Noriyuki Nakayama's "The Treasure Chest Enigma" has a whole section dedicated to long ladders with bends, switchbacks, etc. Since this is also, IMO, one of the greatest go books ever published, I very much recommend it.

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 Post subject: Re: Where can i find difficult sicho (ladder)?
Post #12 Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 1:46 am 
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HermanHiddema wrote:
Noriyuki Nakayama's "The Treasure Chest Enigma" has a whole section dedicated to long ladders with bends, switchbacks, etc. Since this is also, IMO, one of the greatest go books ever published, I very much recommend it.

IMO I just don't picture The Treasure Chest Enigma as having reached the same greatness as Xuanxuan Qijing.

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 Post subject: Re: Where can i find difficult sicho (ladder)?
Post #13 Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 2:16 am 
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tchan001 wrote:
HermanHiddema wrote:
Noriyuki Nakayama's "The Treasure Chest Enigma" has a whole section dedicated to long ladders with bends, switchbacks, etc. Since this is also, IMO, one of the greatest go books ever published, I very much recommend it.

IMO I just don't picture The Treasure Chest Enigma as having reached the same greatness as Xuanxuan Qijing.


That is another book I'd put in the same category. I enjoyed John Fairbairn's e-Book version very much. I'd find it hard to say which is better. They are different, but both are certainly among the greatest go books ever published.

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 Post subject: Re: Where can i find difficult sicho (ladder)?
Post #14 Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 9:56 pm 
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logan wrote:
Maybe you'll enjoy this one:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black to play
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | X . O . X X . O . X . O . X X . O . X |
$$ | . O . . O O . . O . O . X O O X . O . |
$$ | O . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | X O . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . O X |
$$ | X O . . . O . . O O O . . O . . . O X |
$$ | . . . . . . O . X X X . O . . . . . . |
$$ | O . . . . . . O . O . O . . . . . . O |
$$ | . O . . . O X . O . O . X O . . . O . |
$$ | X . O X X O X O . X . O X O X X O . X |
$$ | . O . . . O X . O . O . X O . . . O . |
$$ | O . . . . . . O . O . O . . . . . . O |
$$ | . . . . . . O . X X X . O . . . . . . |
$$ | X O . . . O . . O O O . . O . . . O X |
$$ | X O . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . O X |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | O . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O |
$$ | . O . . O O . . O . O . . O O . . O . |
$$ | X . O . X X . O . X . O . X X . O . X |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If you'd like more, please let me know.



This problem is actually realatibely simple; you should still count the number of times you had to restart. I had one at every star point, but since the ladder was unbranching, I never had to restart from the beginning.

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 Post subject: Re: Where can i find difficult sicho (ladder)?
Post #15 Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2014 2:57 am 
Gosei
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O , O . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Fairbairn, Gateway to All Marvels, problem 4: Attracting the dragon out of the water.

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Post #16 Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2014 5:34 am 
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http://www.goproblems.com/group/usergroup.php?id=53

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 Post subject: Re: Where can i find difficult sicho (ladder)?
Post #17 Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2014 10:29 am 
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@Loons:

Yes, an interesting problem.

The start is obvious, to stronger players:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 4 X O , O . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | 1 3 X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 2 X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc :b9: @ :bc: to avoid under the stones.
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X B O , O . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | 7 5 X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X 6 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


But after that, it gets complicated:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm10
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O , O . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | O O X O b . c . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X X O 1 . a . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


How now? Something like a? From the rest of the board, it is obvious that some stones of white must get into a ladder following a specific path, which bends twice. Black has a forcing move at b still. Then maybe c?

Too many options. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Where can i find difficult sicho (ladder)?
Post #18 Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2014 10:43 am 
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HermanHiddema wrote:
@Loons:

Yes, an interesting problem.

The start is obvious, to stronger players:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 4 X O , O . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | 1 3 X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 2 X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc :b9: @ :bc: to avoid under the stones.
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X B O , O . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | 7 5 X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X 6 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


But after that, it gets complicated:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm10
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O , O . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | O O X O b . c . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X X O 1 . a . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


How now? Something like a? From the rest of the board, it is obvious that some stones of white must get into a ladder following a specific path, which bends twice. Black has a forcing move at b still. Then maybe c?

Too many options. :)


It's amazing how much more sense this problem makes when you realize it's white to move :oops:


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 Post subject: Re: Where can i find difficult sicho (ladder)?
Post #19 Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2014 9:51 pm 
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skydyr wrote:

It's amazing how much more sense this problem makes when you realize it's white to move :oops:


For real, who makes white to move problems? :roll:

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