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 Post subject: 10 reasons why adults fail to improve at chess
Post #1 Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2015 5:48 am 
Oza
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Here is an advertisement for a chess improvement program. The ad starts by describing the 10 reasons before plugging its 21 day program. I feel that most of these reasons apply to me, a player who started go at a later age (mid 40's). Here are the 10 headers and a brief synopsis by me on its application to go:

1. Lack of Motivation - we won't sacrifice other interests for go.
2. Bad Memory - our flawed memory makes it hard to remember joseki and other common patterns.
3. Inability to Calculate Variations - we cannot visualize well enough to see more than 3 moves ahead.
4. Absence of a Study Plan - we own lots of material (books) - but have no direction.
5. Psychological Instability - negative thinking.
6. Low Chess (go) Stamina - we lose focus during a long game which leads to bad decisions.
7. “Fear of Ghosts” - we let fear of a mistake dictate our play.
8. Lack of Competitiveness - it's hard to stay motivated when we think it's "just a game."
9. Inability to Handle Pressure - pretty much sums it up.
10. Time Management Choices - we don't consistently do enough of the right kind of work.

Do they apply to you as well? What about to you younger folk?

If any of you chess players would like to try out this miracle cure and then share it with us, I'd be glad to hear more about it.

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 Post subject: Re: 10 reasons why adults fail to improve at chess
Post #2 Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2015 7:33 am 
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C'mon people! Where is the miracle cure for my go suckiness? How I would like to give $19.95 to watch it fade in 21 days!

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 Post subject: Re: 10 reasons why adults fail to improve at chess
Post #3 Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2015 7:38 am 
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I started in my late 20's and am now 30, I'd say most of these apply to me to some extent or another, though negative thinking is a bad thing? :lol:

Pessimism all the way!

1 - Not really sure this is such a bad thing, assuming we're treating this as a hobby.
6 - This seems to come in two different types for me, the 'just end the game already' type where I will catastrophically lose a won game, and then the ones where I've had to read far more than usual and then my brain just gives up somewhere, though byo-yomi will hit before that sometimes.
7 - Fear of stronger opponents maybe, definitely not mistakes though.
10 - Isn't this basically the same as 4?

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 Post subject: Re: 10 reasons why adults fail to improve at chess
Post #4 Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2015 7:58 am 
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I think this is a fair list. I started playing at age 21 and kept on improving steadily until reaching 5 dan fifteen years later. In all of those years I think did pretty well on each of the first 9 counts. The tenth was not really much of an issue as we never played with clocks except at tournaments .

But since then (1988) I have not improved at all in the next 26 years and have probably declined in strength by at least one rank. Why is this? Well, items 1, 4, 6 and 8 loom large as negative effects.
Items 2 and 3 are probably almost as strong as they ever were but I find myself not applying them during the games I now play for fun simply because I use these things on other parts of my life and need a break from them when relaxing. 5, 7, and 9 simply are not issues for me now because I don't play seriously, but I doubt I could have got to 5 dan had they been an issue earlier.

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 Post subject: Re: 10 reasons why adults fail to improve at chess
Post #5 Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2015 9:38 am 
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A couple of thoughts.

First, any adult who does not make money at go who does not think of it as just a game I would worry about.

Second, I am pretty sure that #6 is about physical stamina. Research years ago in which subjects did difficult arithmetic in their heads, such as multiplying numbers with several digits, did not show any increase in error rate over several hours. (The subjects were reclining.)

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 Post subject: Re: 10 reasons why adults fail to improve at chess
Post #6 Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2015 10:49 am 
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The OP does refer to adults. Most, and maybe all, of the items listed could also apply to children.

If we look for factors which apply mainly to adults, I think an important two factors are missing.

FACTOR 1 - the Einstellung effect.

By the nature of things adults have learnt to succeed in some things, and the E effect tells us that we are then likely to apply a method we know is successful for one thing to other, new things, even when the method is not really appropriate. Children, relatively, have a tabula rasa and so can more easily learn the most appropriate method for the new problem.

The E effect is especially pernicious in cases where the old, inappropriate method can achieve results, that is it can be effective even though may not be efficient or appropriate. I think this is manifested in chess and go in two main ways.

One is to try to apply numbers, lists, proverbs, theories to the game. These can achieve improvement and so are effective to some degree, but they are neither efficient or appropriate as regards becoming truly strong.

The other is to buy too many books. I'm sure we have all experienced the joy of starting a new subject and finding a book that seems to take us on in leaps and bounds. Adults, who by and large have money burning a hole in their pockets, then spend more and more on books in a mostly vain effort to re-create that initial thrill.

FACTOR 2 - the myth of understanding.

Adults too often seem satisfied with understanding how something works, but they rarely put effort into ingraining that into their sub-conscious so that it becomes intuitive. But there is a paradox here, because if you skip the understanding bit and just do the grunt, repetitive work, your sub-conscious will end up 'understanding' the subject better than you ever could consciously. Children don't seem to have the same urge to understand (or perhaps more accurately, to demonstrate to others or themselves that they understand).

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Post #7 Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2015 10:55 am 
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Bill Spight wrote:
First, any adult who does not make money at go who does not think of it as just a game I would worry about.
Hi Bill, this one I strongly disagree (very rare, with you. :) ).

There are many fields that are not about money and that people take very seriously. :)
To the point of risking serious injuries, or even death, even though they are absolutely not about financial gains.
In fact, one of the big pluses for Go (and chess, etc.) is the relatively low risk of physical injuries. Usually. :mrgreen:

(Of course, there's nothing wrong with treating Go as "just a game" for most amateurs.
Arguably, it's the "normal" thing to do, even.
But it's also perfectly OK for a few to think otherwise. :) )

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 Post subject: Re: 10 reasons why adults fail to improve at chess
Post #8 Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2015 11:55 am 
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Children's brains are not tabulae rasae. Humans are particularly dependent upon and good at learning, but we all start out with certain preconceptions. One very important way that learning in children differs from learning in adults is that children learn in part by sculpting their brains. And I do mean sculpting like a sculptor. Children lose neurons at a very high rate, retaining the most used neurons. Every adult's brain has been structured and specialized by this process, as well as other learning. Even adult brains have a certain plasticity, but cannot be structured like a child's brain can. Losing neurons is not such a good thing for adults.

John Fairbairn wrote:
The OP does refer to adults. Most, and maybe all, of the items listed could also apply to children.

If we look for factors which apply mainly to adults, I think an important two factors are missing.

FACTOR 1 - the Einstellung effect.

By the nature of things adults have learnt to succeed in some things, and the E effect tells us that we are then likely to apply a method we know is successful for one thing to other, new things, even when the method is not really appropriate. Children, relatively, have a tabula rasa and so can more easily learn the most appropriate method for the new problem.

The E effect is especially pernicious in cases where the old, inappropriate method can achieve results, that is it can be effective even though may not be efficient or appropriate. I think this is manifested in chess and go in two main ways.

One is to try to apply numbers, lists, proverbs, theories to the game. These can achieve improvement and so are effective to some degree, but they are neither efficient or appropriate as regards becoming truly strong.


OC, unless an adult has already sculpted efficient structures for go, it is too late to do so. We have to make do with what we have. A good example of this kind of thing is learning a foreign language as an adult. Even those who become fluent store vocabulary in that language all over the place in the brain, making retrieval relatively inefficient. It is entirely appropriate for adults to apply abstract thinking when they learn a new intellectual game. It makes efficient and effective use of what they already have, of the structures they have already sculpted in their brains, and of other previous learnings. (BTW, famed hypnotherapist Milton Erickson did amazing things with helping people to apply previous learnings effectively in new ways. I imagine that ways could be developed that would help most adults to do that in learning go. But we would first have to get rid of the notion that adults ought to learn like children do.)


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FACTOR 2 - the myth of understanding.

Adults too often seem satisfied with understanding how something works, but they rarely put effort into ingraining that into their sub-conscious so that it becomes intuitive.


Well, I found out about overlearning when I was in high school, and to judge by what people have written here and on Sensei's Library, I think that a lot of serious players do focus on effective repetition, drill, and practice.

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But there is a paradox here, because if you skip the understanding bit and just do the grunt, repetitive work, your sub-conscious will end up 'understanding' the subject better than you ever could consciously.


Well, your subconscious always understands better than your conscious mind. :) That is so even if you develop your conscious understanding. You are developing your unconscious understanding at the same time. :)

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Post #9 Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2015 11:59 am 
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EdLee wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
First, any adult who does not make money at go who does not think of it as just a game I would worry about.
Hi Bill, this one I strongly disagree (very rare, with you. :) ).

There are many fields that are not about money and that people take very seriously. :)


Oh, I take games seriously.

OC, I worry about myself. ;)

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Post #10 Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2015 12:29 pm 
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Bill Spight wrote:
OC, I worry about myself. ;)
:mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: 10 reasons why adults fail to improve at chess
Post #11 Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2015 6:41 pm 
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I started playing go in 2011 at the age of 14, and I'd have to say that aside from numbers 1 and 4, most of the points on the list you made haven't been a problem for me. Number 4 only exists as an issue when Number 1 does, otherwise I do spend time studying the game.


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 Post subject: Re: 10 reasons why adults fail to improve at chess
Post #12 Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2015 7:23 pm 
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1.
I did have a big dip in interest, so I guess lack of motivation did affect me for a while.

2.
I don't know how good or bad my memory is relative to others, but I'm fairly sure that if I drill things hard enough, they will stay in my memory forever. Or at least for a very long time.

3.
The 3-move limit can definitely be surmounted by hard work, but it is definitely impossible without hard work. I've nudged it to 5 and want it to go to 7 or 9 or deeper. Eventually, I have faith I'll get there. Visualizing is hard work, though. Not for the faint of heart.

4.
I really feel that having a solid study plan means a world of difference. If you don't have a set schedule, it becomes nearly impossible to evaluate one's efforts relative to one's progress, and adjust efforts if progress is lacking. You really really need that plan, even if at first it's a bad one.

5.
I'm fairly hard to unsettle, but that's mostly because I know my limits. I don't usually fret about failing when operating beyond my known limits. Is that fatalism or stability? It works for me anyway.

6.
The mental stamina doesn't figure in as much for me, but I never play with more than 30 minutes on the clock. It might be a very different issue if you're stuck with two hours of thinkie time to fill out and you're almost falling asleep while your opponent takes twenty minutes for one move.

I always assume that my opponent might just run down their timer on the next move, as some do. I don't feel particularly upset about it if they do. I do marvel at the single-mindedness of those who will let their timer run down to just barely not losing yet and then escape. It's so enormously stupid. You will lose anyway. Why on earth do people sit around waiting to escape later? Why not simply resign directly, instead of forfeiting the game in the most incomprehensibly stupid way?

7.
I embrace the ghosts. If I don't know what causes something to fail, I will just play it until someone shows me. Many people relish the opportunity to show off their superior skills, so why not let them?

8.
I do think it's just a game, but that doesn't seem to affect how much effort I want to put in. A game is not much fun to me if I hold back. If I'm not really trying to fight and win, it's really enormously dull. Games are meant to entertain, after all. There has to be some form of uncertainty about who wins. If I lose because I wasn't trying very hard, that feels like letting myself down very badly.

9.
I have handled worse pressure than a mere board game. I'm really not likely to fall apart because the game is going poorly, or I had a series of losses. My life is not riding on the outcome of this game, and if I lose, I can play again. As many times as I can find the time for. Perhaps its not that I have such resilience against pressure, it's that I don't really feel under pressure when playing. Maybe that would have been different if I were making a living off the game.

10.
I don't really know how to judge the quality of my time management. It is being managed and expended on things. Maybe that's correct, maybe it isn't. I'm trying to figure out how to play better, but I'm not sure it's the perfect way. It's a way, and it has a net positive result. I certainly couldn't afford the consultancy of a teacher though. I'll just have to hope I'm not wasting too much time.

If you ask me about this list in regards to chess or shogi, though, the lack of motivation becomes a lot larger. I've chosen my game, and that means I've chosen against others. Also, there's hardly anyone to play shogi with. That really puts a damper on my motivation. Maybe if I could live in Japan for a few years ...

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 Post subject: Re: 10 reasons why adults fail to improve at chess
Post #13 Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 4:25 am 
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@tentano - what age group do you fall into? What is your study plan? How did you come up with it?

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 Post subject: Re: 10 reasons why adults fail to improve at chess
Post #14 Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 4:36 am 
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Bill Spight wrote:
A couple of thoughts.

First, any adult who does not make money at go who does not think of it as just a game I would worry about.

I think the author's assertion is that if you just play for fun without taking the game very seriously, you may lack the competitive edge needed to keep you performing at your best.
Quote:
Second, I am pretty sure that #6 is about physical stamina. Research years ago in which subjects did difficult arithmetic in their heads, such as multiplying numbers with several digits, did not show any increase in error rate over several hours. (The subjects were reclining.)

The article does refer to physical stamina, but points to improving it as a way of countering low mental stamina. Do you think it would be enough to play go in bed?

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 Post subject: Re: 10 reasons why adults fail to improve at chess
Post #15 Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 4:53 am 
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John Fairbairn wrote:
The OP does refer to adults. Most, and maybe all, of the items listed could also apply to children.

They could, sure, but I think most would tend to have more impact on adults.
1. Kids find it easier to throw themselves into a new hobby because they haven't spent years cultivation old ones.
2. What was I saying?
3. I can't back this up empirically, it just seems that younger brains are easier to hardwire to these tasks.
4. This might be even worse with kids who see no need to study at all. Then again, they don't have the guilt of unread books on a shelf.
5. This could just as easily apply to kids, yeah.
6. Many kids have lots of natural energy, and practice being glued to a screen for hours on end. I haven't heard of kids feeling exhausted by thinking about a game.
7. No idea
8. I think it's easier for kids to take a game seriously.
9, 10. Doesn't seem specific to adults.

Quote:
The Einstellung effect
Good point. Those who only know the hammer will pound in the screw.
Quote:
the myth of understanding
While children may not have the need to place all new concepts into a few available drawers, they also aren't necessarily great at performing repetitive tasks in order to train their subconsciouses.

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 Post subject: Re: 10 reasons why adults fail to improve at chess
Post #16 Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 4:55 am 
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Bill Spight wrote:
A good example of this kind of thing is learning a foreign language as an adult. Even those who become fluent store vocabulary in that language all over the place in the brain, making retrieval relatively inefficient.


I haven't heard this before - are you referring to a specific study?

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 Post subject: Re: 10 reasons why adults fail to improve at chess
Post #17 Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 6:47 am 
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C'mon people! Where is the miracle cure for my go suckiness?

You're at least two stones stronger than I am.

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 Post subject: Re: 10 reasons why adults fail to improve at chess
Post #18 Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 8:46 am 
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Fedya wrote:
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C'mon people! Where is the miracle cure for my go suckiness?

You're at least two stones stronger than I am.

Yes, but I suspect that we are sucky in a similar way. You probably suffer from many of the same symptoms that plague me - inability to apply learned concepts effectively, failure to remember patterns exactly, inability to visualize/assess results of an exchange, inaccurate/insufficient reading, etc. We have probably also tried similar remedies - done tsumego, reviewed pro games, gotten our games reviewed, read books etc, but the complaints remain. If there was a pill that could help me improve, I'm sure it would help you just as much.

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 Post subject: Re: 10 reasons why adults fail to improve at chess
Post #19 Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 8:57 am 
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daal wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
A good example of this kind of thing is learning a foreign language as an adult. Even those who become fluent store vocabulary in that language all over the place in the brain, making retrieval relatively inefficient.


I haven't heard this before - are you referring to a specific study?


It's from something I read some years back. Sorry, I don't have a reference handy. The study used PET scans and inferred from the highlighted areas where the words were stored. My all over the place is surely too vague. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: 10 reasons why adults fail to improve at chess
Post #20 Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 8:59 am 
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1. Lack of Motivation - check
2. Bad Memory - check
3. Inability to Calculate Variations - sometimes I can surprisingly well, I mean the sequence just appears in my brain without me trying too hard. Other times, not so much...
4. Absence of a Study Plan - study plan? huh? (I mean, check)
5. Psychological Instability - Usually I have my pulse increased during midgame. I like that.
6. Low Chess (go) Stamina - The problem is more like I'm already tired / sleepy when I start the game.
7. “Fear of Ghosts” - sometimes yes, other times no
8. Lack of Competitiveness - On the other hand "I'm just going to beat that guy!" - because winning feels good
9. Inability to Handle Pressure - same as nr 5?
10. Time Management Choices - work? Go is a game :) The only kind of "work" I do related to go is that I watch tutoring videos and sometimes read forum posts.

And here I am on the edge of 6k - 5k, having done ~16 stones of progress in 12 years with long breaks. (That is a mere example without an intent to agree or disagree with the OP)

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