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 Post subject: psychological profile of a sandbagger
Post #1 Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 4:37 pm 
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Why do they do it? What is the benefit of winning to a weaker player? Where is the challenge?

My thesis is that sandbaggers lack self-validation. Very possible that in childhood their parents didn't reward them with validation; a sense of worth. They achieved things but mommy and daddy didn't pay attention and nothing was good enough.

Now these people are adults or young adults and they are getting their validation or recognition anyway they can... even a sure win agaisnt weaker players. They know is pathetic but they can resist themselves.

Very sad and they should seek psychological treatment anytime soon.

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 Post subject: Re: psychological profile of a sandbagger
Post #2 Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 5:05 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: psychological profile of a sandbagger
Post #3 Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 5:21 pm 
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I have often thought that sandbaggers are people who lack confidence in themselves and have to proves themselves anyway they can.

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 Post subject: Re: psychological profile of a sandbagger
Post #4 Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 5:53 pm 
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Can't they just be mean? That is, take pleasure in disrupting the self-confidence of weaker players.

Sandbaggers are deliberately misrepresenting themselves, but especially beginners wouldn't be able to tell if they themselves are really bad, or their opponent is too strong for their stated rank.

I always looked at it as a type of bullying, anyway.

If I'd play an even game against someone much weaker, with my actual rank unhidden, the experience would be very different. They would expect to lose and not feel anywhere near as bad that I'm so much better. They already knew they had no chance when it started.

I've even played against sandbaggers who could simulate weaker play, as well as the hotseat variety where someone would swap out with a better player when things were going south. So first you're winning, then suddenly you're up against someone who can see things you don't know exist. It can really shake your confidence, and that's what entertains the bullies.

I don't buy that they're looking for validation, anyway. They already know they're much better. They're looking to make someone else's day worse.

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 Post subject: Re: psychological profile of a sandbagger
Post #5 Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 5:57 pm 
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Well, don't you think it is true that bullies are people who don't have confidence in themselves and so need to try to prove themselves? Confident people don't need to be bullies - they can succeed without it. My previous statement stands.

Unless, of course, they are psychopaths and that is a whole different area. But I doubt many psychopaths are active go players.

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 Post subject: Re: psychological profile of a sandbagger
Post #6 Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 6:07 pm 
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pitirre wrote:
[..] in childhood [..]


DrStraw wrote:
[..] lack confidence [..]


tentano wrote:
[..] They're looking to make someone else's day worse.



I see no contradictions here … the reason for wanting to make someone else’s day worse is some perverted gratification system in these people. Having grown up in a family where violence towards us children was not rare (until our parents discovered psychotherapy), I know, better than I’d want to, how easy it can seem to get satisfaction out of sadistic behaviour towards weaker ones. I’m quite sure that every big bully (actually had another word here but forum censoring changed it into “cad”) must have had some traumatizing experiences in their childhood which changed them from a little kid into a little bully.

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 Post subject: Re: psychological profile of a sandbagger
Post #7 Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 6:39 pm 
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Of course it is mean... but winning is the most important factor to these people. Think about it: hours of playing against way way way weaker players, just senseless moves without a challenge... just to be mean? No. There HAS to be a reason tor all this nonsense that makes them feel good about themselves: winning. Winning is the drug. Makes them feel good. They are not thinking about the feelings of their opponent ... they are seeking the feeling that validate them. The idea that other people think of them as "unique" or "special".

Im here thinking, hours and days spent on games that are not challenging with beginners ... wow, it must be exhausting to keep that lie.

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 Post subject: Re: psychological profile of a sandbagger
Post #8 Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 6:45 pm 
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Oh, I hadn't accounted for the possibility that they might be dishonest with themselves.

That certainly makes it possible to create a rationale for "deserving" or "earning" those victories, despite facts.

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 Post subject: Re: psychological profile of a sandbagger
Post #9 Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 6:50 pm 
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Many psychological disorders the individual knows he is not "right" BUT the compulsion is greater.

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 Post subject: Re: psychological profile of a sandbagger
Post #10 Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 7:11 pm 
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pitirre wrote:
Many psychological disorders the individual knows he is not "right" BUT the compulsion is greater.


I like the Socratic argument that if one truly understood what virtue is, one would perforce be virtuous; that evil is actually a form of ignorance.

In most cases the person really does not know that what he is doing is not right. At most he knows that other people think that it is not right.

Bonobo wrote:
...“cad”...

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 Post subject: Re: psychological profile of a sandbagger
Post #11 Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 9:36 pm 
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I've been told that I'm sandbagging, as I very easily win against some equally ranked players, but then I lose devastatingly to other players at the same rank. If I am sandbagging, are they sandbagging to a greater extent?

If my win rate is about fifty fifty that is normal, I would expect.

Is sandbagging only if there is a significant and intentional gap in strength?

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 Post subject: Re: psychological profile of a sandbagger
Post #12 Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 11:26 pm 
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Joaz Banbeck wrote:
pitirre wrote:
Many psychological disorders the individual knows he is not "right" BUT the compulsion is greater.


I like the Socratic argument that if one truly understood what virtue is, one would perforce be virtuous; that evil is actually a form of ignorance.

In most cases the person really does not know that what he is doing is not right. At most he knows that other people think that it is not right.

Bonobo wrote:
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There's no reason to enforce your version of what's "right" on someone else. Maybe YOU'RE the one who is wrong.

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 Post subject: Re: psychological profile of a sandbagger
Post #13 Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 12:06 am 
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With the anonymity offered by the Internet why does anyone ever act in an anti social way? eg forum trolling or sandbagging. There's probably plenty of reasons, perhaps they have a bad job or life situation.. or just enjoy being mean. I get the impression that most people are rather less moral than we like to admit.

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Post #14 Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 12:47 am 
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Abyssinica wrote:
There's no reason to enforce your version of what's "right" on someone else.
Maybe YOU'RE the one who is wrong.
Hi Abyssinica, could you elaborate or clarify what you mean:
(a) Do you mean "in general," "under any and all circumstances" ?
(b) Or do you mean only under certain situations ?
(c) If you mean (b), then which are those certain situations ?

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 Post subject: Re: psychological profile of a sandbagger
Post #15 Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 3:30 am 
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Don't you guys exaggerate a bit? The sandbagger is neither physically nor psychologically damaging anyone. Why classifying into a psychological profile? A psychological damage could be if he wrote something like "you are stupid not to see that move", etc. But the sandbaggers I have seen so far never do that.

After all it's just a game and probably at that moment he is more interested in winning rather than in playing. He wastes his own time because he does not learn anything, but his opponent still has the opportunity to learn.

Acting like the devil's advocate, I must add that I never do sandbagging myself. But when I lose against a sandbagger, I don't mind either. Why would I, it's not a secret that there are stronger players than myself in the world.

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 Post subject: Re: psychological profile of a sandbagger
Post #16 Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 4:16 am 
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You armchair psychologists would probably call me a sandbagger as I have some accounts a lot weaker than my peak strength. This can be due to:
- Not concentrating and playing crap
- Trying to have fun instead of trying to win
- Losing on time a lot
- Disconnects and auto-forfeits
- Playing on my phone and missclicking a lot, and resigning when they don't give undo (even if I might still be able to win but don't feel like continuing)
- Resigning because I have something more important to do like get out of bed and go to work.

And not because mommy didn't say well done when I built a cool sandcastle aged 6.

So be careful how much you assume about your opponent's situation and motivations.


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Post #17 Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 4:29 am 
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EdLee wrote:
Abyssinica wrote:
There's no reason to enforce your version of what's "right" on someone else.
Maybe YOU'RE the one who is wrong.
Hi Abyssinica, could you elaborate or clarify what you mean:
(a) Do you mean "in general," "under any and all circumstances" ?
(b) Or do you mean only under certain situations ?
(c) If you mean (b), then which are those certain situations ?


I'm just saying that it's a bit hyppocritical to be stating that they might not know what is right when the definition of what's right varies from person to person and that you're acting as if your version of what's right is the only version out there. Saying someone doesn't know what they're doing is not right doesn't have any weight because there is no one right.

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 Post subject: Re: psychological profile of a sandbagger
Post #18 Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 4:54 am 
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I hate sandbaggers for a number of reasons.
- First of all it destroys my self confidence.
- When they write insulting comments atop of sandbagging it makes me angry.
- I really don't like when sandbaggers take handycap stones!
- They make it really hard for genuine '?' ranked players to solidify their rank.
- A fairly easy telling sign is that they greet with 'enjoy' or 'have fun' instead of 'good game' in the beginning.

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 Post subject: Re: psychological profile of a sandbagger
Post #19 Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 5:00 am 
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Come to think of it, I've had it happen that people accused me of sandbagging because I (accidentally!) played a few very strong moves which they could not answer.

I just ignore it as sore loser syndrome, but there's definitely a subset of players who are a little overly paranoid about sandbaggers.


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 Post subject: Re: psychological profile of a sandbagger
Post #20 Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 5:19 am 
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When I was still improving rapidly, much faster than most online rating systems could keep up with, I usually had a few accounts at any time that were about 5 stones (or more) weaker than my strongest (accurately rated) accounts. Especially on IGS, as their system takes so long to catch up.

On days when I was feeling particularly tired, I would wallow in cowardice and play on these accounts, telling myself "If I played on my main account today, I would just get butchered, so what'd be the point?"
It wasn't meanness, but rather fear of losing badly on my other accounts which drove me to do it. I don't mind losing if I played at my best, but I do mind losing if it's because of stupid blunders I'd never have committed with a clear head.
Playing on these weaker accounts and knowing I considerately outranked my opponents despite my weariness, I tried to play a lot of honte moves and win without the need for a devastating tactical knockout.

One evening on IGS in one of these games I played someone with a curious handle, "bunny125" or something along those lines.
Having just about destroyed him (at that time I thought it was a "him") because he had created weak groups all over the place, he suddenly stopped moving.

I was already used to that: If one of my opponents would get beating very badly (this is also true for my main accounts) they would often just let the game time out instead of resigning. I usually just do tsumego in the time the clock runs down.
And so I didn't think anything of it.

If that was the end of the story, I wouldn't have bothered posting. However, two years later..

Due to a job-change I moved to another city, whose go-club I would soon be a regular at. The mood there was sometimes a bit downcast, something suppressing was hanging in the air, yet noone confided in me and everytime I would steer the conversation towards these lingering clouds that seemed to be weighing down on everyone, I would just reap silent stares and gloomy faces avoiding my eyes.
Eventually I got around to befriending a guy, Johan, in the club, in fact, more than befriend him: I fell in love.

At first oblivious to it, I caught myself daydreaming about him at work, and my girlfriend at that time grew suspicious of me, though I kept reassuring her that, and I was feeling entirely truthful, I wasn't seeing anybody.
But I also knew she was right, I did stop loving her, yet I was in love.

With my relationship going rapidly downhill, I took even more comfort in going to the go-club at Wednesdays, and sometimes would even arrange to meet Johan privately to play on his floor-goban at his place. At this point I was already conscious of my desires towards him, but couldn't fathom ever openly talking about them to anyone, certainly not to him.

One Saturday I convinced him to stay home and play go with me instead of going to the movies, and, completely alone, we played a few games and joked around light-heartedly about trivial matters, as we would often do.
But then there was a change in atmosphere; a lump in the throat, a knot in my stomach, I was suddenly struck mute and helplessly cast embarressed glances around his dorm, while he was clearing the goban.
After he finished putting the stones away, he didn't say anything for quite a while and we just sat in silence, avoiding each other's eyes.
My heart pounding and feeling a panic surge up in me, desperate to break the silence somehow, I blurted out a comment about that depressing atmosphere in the go-club that I had noticed when I first moved to the city.
Without raising his head, almost inaudible, he said it was his sister; she used to come to the club and died at the age of 10, two and a half years ago.
Dumbstruck by this unexpected confession, the silence felt even more repressing, but a moment later he resumed:

Luisa, that was her name, was being bullied at school by a gang of vicious little boys on whose ringleader, to top it off, she had a terrible crush.
She was beautiful and had friends at school that sympathized with her situation, but she would often just fall silent and stare vacantly into the air at home, where the world wasn't perfect either: her mother had frequent visits to the hospital because of psychotic episodes. Luisa was left in the dark about what was happening with her mother, but she had some ideas, and it was obvious that she wasn't coping too well.
When Johan left home and went to university, he suggested Luisa should come to the go-club with him sometimes. (Him and Luisa used to be inseperable. From what I can tell, she was quite infatuated with him.)
At the go-club she received a warm welcome: beaming with happiness when playing and being together with her brother, she became a regular, visiting even when Johan couldn't because he was too busy studying.
She had assumed a precocious air around the club and was treated by everyone as their own child. Everyone liked to play her and she loved playing everyone. She improved very quickly and was obviously happy.
But sometimes she would get really upset when she lost. At times she would just brush it off and start a new game, but at other times it seemed to strike an odd note with her and her gleaming smile would be gone for the rest of the day, despite everone's efforts to cheer her up.

At a loss for what to say I asked how strong she was. Johan told me her IGS account, “bunny215”, was at 12kyu at the end.

At this I felt the floor beneath me dropping away, my head spinning, like I'd just been struck with a sledgehammer. My heart began pounding even harder and I got a ringing in my ears.

Johan, still looking down, didn't notice any of that, breathed a deep sigh, and continued in a mechanical manner:
In the summer two years ago, on the morning of May 21st, Luisa went into the attic and found her mother dangling from a wooden beam, electrical chord around her neck.

Having said that, Johan fell silent again. After a pause:

She stopped coming to the club after that and was silent most of the time. She hardly left her room when she was home and her teachers were very worried about her. It was during that time of isolation that she started playing go online.

Johan sighed heavily with blank eyes, finishing his account:
during a lecture on 18th century Russian law, he got a call from his father, hysterical, that Luisa had hung herself the night before.

I felt like I was going to faint, my heart still racing, I mumbled something about having to go to the toilet, struggled to my feet and, not even sure Johan had heard what I said, went towards the bathroom as if drunken.

I locked myself inside, got on all fours and felt like vomiting, but couldn't. My head was swimming, and I tried getting up to look into the mirror: the room was shaking and the pallid grimmace madly peering back at me from the mirror did little to ease my condition.

I stormed out of the toilet and went straight for the door of the flat without saying anything to Johan, who was still sitting in front of the goban with a downcast look, obviously consumed by his own demons and not able to recognize my behaviour as odd.


With things not working out very well in my new job anyways, and feeling a strong urge to get away from the affair with Johan and also from my girlfriend, I left town shortly afterwards.

I have never told anyone about this until today, and if you're reading this, Johan: I am sorry.
And Luisa, I'm sorry, too. I hope you found your mother in heaven.


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