The subtleties of why 40 is wrong are difficult to articulate, and are probably beyond me. I described it as too close to black's thickness, while Bill described it as an overplay. It's probably both, and more.

From my experience, I know that black is going to place a stone somewhere in the middle of that space between 40 and the corner. While I would not expect my stones around 40 to get into trouble any time soon, I also know that because of black's excellent thickness above, my stones will not be able to attack black's invading stones particularly aggressively. I would thus not expect a particularly great result, and ultimately, my stones may end up weak, or at best only getting a couple of points. I would thus look to play a move that combines limiting the power of black's influence, and also developing my position in some way (admittedly, your move 40 has at least partly the same intention).

I'm not sure where I would play, many moves are available. D7 would not be my personal choice, given how hopeless it is in terms of the corner, or my lack of confidence in building significant influence to the right, what with the O3 stone there, but I'm sure it's a viable option. Personally I think C8 is fine, and I think Bill recommended it as one of your earlier moves. Probably anything in the vicinity is playable.

My guess about why Bill called it an overplay is that it's a move that only works if your opponent ignores it - 40 combined with a white move around c7/d7 would be very nice.

Ed, it may be worth describing why you think 15 is a mistake.

I wouldn't worry about move 40, it's fine for a 7k and fine for a 1k.

Hi quantum, no, please see post 19. And Uber's post 22.

I didn't see the move in these -- did I miss it ?

Jan, 2015 game

Nov, 2014 game

If you could find the thread and the move, it would be helpful to compare it with .

Am I to conclude from this, by induction, that it's OK at 5d? If a move is bad, and it can be articulated why, then at any level it's potentially worth knowing, even if you lack the tactical expertise or whole board judgement (or whatever) to punish it appropriately. I appreciate that there is a concern that we should help Fedya focus on the biggest flaws, and I agree, 40 is far from the biggest flaw, but the whole forum can benefit from the discussion. So if in fact 40 is not an error, then I'd be grateful in some assistance in understanding why my impression (and explanation) is flawed.

Do you mean 20? I missed that. Ed, in general, I think you're making excessive use of the hide tag. I don't get why you use it for what appear to be entirely on topic comments. Are you trying to mitigate the forum's performance problems?

I guess it's move 22 in Mar, 2014 game

Hi quantum, I didn't mean 20; I actually meant post 19.
I shouldn't have mentioned -- it wasn't Fedya's move anyway -- for the same reasons mentioned in post 19.

However, an unintended result is we find out about and Fedya's association of with --
this is very interesting (to me, since I had the same experience) .

schawipp,

Thanks for finding the thread and the move.

As expected, the situation with the March game is quite different from in this game.

An important point: both in the March game and in this game did NOT lose the game.

Why shouldn't you mention when somebody's opponent made a mistake and that the person who requested the review has the chance to take advantage, even if that advantage is "only" taking a neglected big part of the board?


I still don't see the difference.

Hi Fedya, please see PM.

I think that its OK to point out opponent mistakes, at least if both players are at roughly the same level, as they're likely to be making similar kinds of mistakes.



There are quite a few differences, but I'm not sure which one(s) Ed is referring to, so I'll leave it to him to explain. Unfortunately (if you want quick answers) it seems Ed prefers you figure out these things on your own

Hi quantum, Thanks.

I started a PM with Fedya. We'll see how it goes from there.
Actually, there is another thread where I tried to discuss some of these issues,
with some interesting results.

You're correct that, in general, if someone wants some quick and easy answers,
they may not always be available. ( Sometimes, they are. )

No I think it is probably a mistake, but I am not sure. Also playing somewhat over-ambitious moves (which is what this jump is if a move on the corner is indeed better which I'm not sure, should white help his right side group instead, or k15, or something in top right corner?) could well be a good idea in an attempt to catch up. I would not be incredulous if a player stronger than myself said it was a good move. As a 4d I can find probably 50+ mistakes in a 7k game by spending just a few seconds to come to the conclusion a move is a mistake, whereas this one requires quite a few minutes of thought and even then I could be wrong. I thought your previous comment:

was overly critical: it is certainly a lot better than a pass. s8 was more like a pass (but even that has a small yose value).

Fair enough. The board is still pretty wide open, so questionable to criticize it so harshly. And I agree that overplays are perhaps justified given how far behind already was by move 40.

In my defence, in my games, a move like that (a one space jump to the middle, very close to thickness, far away from any support) tends to result in a weak group. So in fact, 10 points worse than a pass

Ed Lee:

I'm sorry, but I'm not going to have time to deal with your PM right now. See here.

Hi Fedya, Life happens.

Ah! It seems like we agree more than I originally thought.

I still think that was a small error, an SDK move, for two reasons. First, because of the Black wall, it has little potential for development. Second, it is too far from the White stone on D-04. When Black approaches at D-06, the White pincer in the game makes an overconcentrated group, but if White does not pincer, Black has room to make a two space extension for a base. IMO, at D-08 to make a base and stake out the left side is better.

A practical problem is that in the game is hard to handle for a kyu player. And indeed, White lost further ground in the game.

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