Dear All

I am 30++ years old and am interested in learning Go. Way back in 2008, I watched Hikaru no Go and was interested in learning. Alas, real life got in the way and despite my best intentions, I never got around to learning it.

Since this forum has so many Go enthusiasts, I thought it would be great to ask anyone of you to share your story of learning Go when you were older. i.e. 30++. With work commitments, family and real life constraints, it would be nice to see how you managed to sustain your interest in Go and improved your skills.

More specifically, I would be interested to know:

1. What made you interested in the Go?
2. How much time you spent daily on Go?
3. How long did it take to improve on your ranking?
4. Did you face any major roadblocks along the way and how did you surmount it?
5. Any interesting stories or experiences to share about taking up Go at a more 'mature' age.
6. Whether you took up lessons, e.g. via Internet or joined a Go club nearby.

Thanks and hope to hear some interesting and motivational stories from you all.

Go is such a challenging game and I'm don't know whether I'm cut out for it, especially at an 'older' age. Memory's not what it used to be.

Hi agewisdom,

Welcome.

Thanks! Looking forward to you sharing your story.

I want to start learning, but I since I don't have a Divine Go God guiding me, I'm sure it'll be tough...

I play it because I enjoy it and I enjoy the company of the people I play against regularly in real life. I don't think I'd be still doing it if I didn't like the people I met through it. That and kids are a bit older now (5 and 8) so it's easier to steal a half hour here and there. Roadblocks, eh, I've a few chronic illnesses they make doing most things harder so not really age related.

I see. Thanks for sharing. Glad you manage to sustain your interest.

I started learning just before I hit 30, at the same time as our 1st daughter was born - so I've not had whole weekends to 'waste' on hobbies for a long time . I have improved since then, not at a tremendous speed but fairly constantly when I've been using what free time (evenings) I get on Go.

'handy hints'? Get some problem books you can read when you have a free moment (train, on the loo, evenings, lunch break). Get a smart phone and play correspondence Go (e.g. I play on DGS connecting via my phone), I also use my phone for doing problems (or reviewing sgf files which I don't do enough of). On the same sort of idea, I only started playing blitz Go on KGS when I didn't have time for longer games. Also, work on making the most efficient use of your time that you have.

Other than that, be realistic in your goals. Every bit of improvement is a step forward but you won't improve at the same rate as someone who can spend all their time on Go (but that's not the sort of life I'd want at my age anyway).

_________________
I am John. John-I-Am.

1. What made you interested in the Go? Hikaru no Go, like you. At around 40-42, I think.

2. How much time you spent daily on Go? I live alone, so I was free to do as I liked. For about 6 months, I obsessively played and studied go in my free time, playing online and against computer programs. I'm not sure how much time per day.

3. How long did it take to improve on your ranking? In that 6 months, I got to about 12k. Getting to 18k was pretty easy, after that it took work. Now I spend much less time (and spent a couple of years not playing much at all) and am at 10k. (KGS)

4. Did you face any major roadblocks along the way and how did you surmount it? Just loss of enthusiasm and being too busy with other projects. Lately I am back to enjoying Go again.

5. Any interesting stories or experiences to share about taking up Go at a more 'mature' age. Since I work at a library, I started a go club there for people to learn, and have had kids coming to learn to play for several years now. Early on, a retired man who used to help run the former local chess club joined, too. He knew how to play Go, but had never had the opportunity to play against anybody but the computer. It was a great motivator to have another adult who knew how to play. When we first met, he had to give me 6 handicap stones. Toward the end, I was starting to beat him in even games. Sadly, he died a couple of years ago. The week after he died, one of those flat black glass marbles mysteriously dropped out of a book I was checking in at the library circulation desk. I figure that was the closest Neil could come to sending me a go stone as a farewell remembrance. Anyway, it was a friendship I probably would never have had without Go. There are many other good people who I met through the club, who I would never have spent time with otherwise, so the Go club has made an impact on my life. If you can get involved with a group at all, I recommend it.

6. Whether you took up lessons, e.g. via Internet or joined a Go club nearby. I played on KGS, took advantage of free lectures there, pestered people on this forums for advice, read books, did problems on Goproblems.com etc. I found Janice Kim's book series on learning Go to be very easy to understand and useful.

Thanks Inkwolf and CnP for taking the time to share your Go experience.

Wow, Inkwolf, that's quite an accomplishment to almost reach a single digit kyu so fast. Makes me feel more optimistic that I can pick up this game and see some modest improvement, if I put in the effort!

I'm also starting to realize that having a Go friend or rival, is also a great motivating factor to improve in the game. Mirrors Hikaru vs. Akira quite well...

Quite motivating to realize that one can pick up Go even at an older age despite being bogged down by real life unlike the young uns'...

1. What made you interested in the Go?
I was shown the game in my early 20s - I liked it quite a bit then but couldn't find anyone to play against. It only took me 15 years to look on the internet. I am a little slow at times.

2. How much time you spent daily on Go?
Too much/not enough. I try to play at least one game each night and read/watch what I can at other times. Maybe 1-1.5 hours when I do have time. More like 1 hour or less on average.

3. How long did it take to improve on your ranking?
I got to 10k in a year of serious play and study. I'm almost at 2 years now and I'm at 6k.

4. Did you face any major roadblocks along the way and how did you surmount it?
Not roadblocks but the usual factors competing for time and attention: kids, work, life etc. I don't have any other hobbies though so I try to make time for go. In part I play because it is something I can pick up and put down at any time.

5. Any interesting stories or experiences to share about taking up Go at a more 'mature' age.
Watching my 4 year old teach his 70+ year old grandparents to play was a unique experience.

6. Whether you took up lessons, e.g. via Internet or joined a Go club nearby.
No - I played sporadically in a local club but haven't been able to find a new one since moving. I'd like to get a teacher, but finding a fixed time each week to dedicate to a lesson has proven difficult.

Wow, that's quite motivational! Thanks for sharing! You must have an aptitude for the game.

You are.

Honestly, if you have the finances (and time) for it, start and get a go teacher. You will learn better, progress faster, and not run into the same roadblocks that other people have run into (that are mostly self taught).

There is a guy at our club in his late 40s that first started maybe a year ago. I convinced him to take lessons with a qualified pro (note the emphasis on that). After six months we've seen dramatic improvement in his play. I'm pretty sure in another years time he will be in the 1-5k range.

But he is also playing daily, looking at lectures, and doing go problems.

If you're just going to be playing once every so often just to enjoy the game it's not necessary. But if you have hopes and goals in mind, i'd say the earlier you start getting lessons, the better. You will not run into the problems that most self taught players have.

Thanks for the sound advice. I'm definitely keeping this at the back of my mind, especially if I hit a roadblock. Most of the times, I do like to self study. However, I do understand your advice. Sometimes, it's easy to pick up very bad habits and it's difficult to 'unlearn' these when trying to improve at higher levels. As with Go, so it's the same with a lot of other skills.

In case you were wondering about how "hard" it is to unlearn bad habits.

When i started lessons, i asked my teacher how long it would take to unlearn most of the bad habits.
The response was "2 years"
And she was right.

and i still have bad habits from when i first started go that we're fixing


another way of thinking about what you should do is what i said for this other guy:




it might sound like a strange disjoint that i say "you can do it without a teacher" but heavily recommend getting a teacher. but think of it like this, of course you can get better on your own, but it'll be much harder, take a longer time, and be very VERY confusing on your own. if you want to spare yourself that problem, just get a teacher.

I appreciate the advice and feel very welcome here.

Just a couple of questions:
1. Could you give an example of what sort of 'bad habits' are? And how they arose? I'm assuming they arose naturally over time as you played many games of Go without an instructor reviewing the game?

2. What sort of activities would be safe, to minimise these bad habits? I'm thinking of doing Go problems. Still a bit blur but probably start with the books problems such as Graded Go problems for beginners. These are probably NON hazardous, right?

As for instructors or lessons, I most probably will take up your advice. Of course, all these require a commitment of time. So that's why I want to play the game a bit get a feel of it and hopefully fall in love with it. I think that way, I would benefit more from professional instruction.

Otherwise, it might actually be detrimental if I suddenly feel too much pressure over it, when joining classes and feeling lost. Especially since I have so little knowledge about the game. I'd like to have some basic knowledge and familiarity first.

1. Could you give an example of what sort of 'bad habits' are? And how they arose? I'm assuming they arose naturally over time as you played many games of Go without an instructor reviewing the game?

Proper shape is a good example but hard to explain. There are certain shapes that are efficient but not something you might automatically think to play. They are necessary to understand to get better.
The closest analogue might be proper golfing form. If you learned it on your own you might be comfortable swinging a certain way but it might hinder you in the long run if you want to hit further.

Concepts in terms of where to play is another example. Two easy ones that people say but don't understand are "play away from thickness" and "play at the border of territory". This is because people don't know or think of what is thickness, and people also don't know what is invadable.

Another easy one is the concept of attack/defense/fighting. People play and typically like to avoid conflict in go. This is bad. if you don't have it put in you to want to fight and attack groups, you're going to be limiting yourself and what you can do in the long run.

2. What sort of activities would be safe, to minimise these bad habits? I'm thinking of doing Go problems. Still a bit blur but probably start with the books problems such as Graded Go problems for beginners. These are probably NON hazardous, right?

Do go problems. Memorize joseki.
but approach it by doing the easy ones. by easy i mean, stuff that takes 5-10 seconds to solve. do 100 of them, and when you're finished, do them again. keep doing them until you don't even have to take time to solve it. then do another 100. repeat.

also, play games
but play slow games. sit and think about what moves you should play.
but don't beat yourself up about it. when you play, think about the situation and play what you think is the best move for that situation.

When I was 30 years old my wife took our oldest son (then 1) out to visit my mother-in-law over the summer break. I suddenly had a lot of free time on my hands like I used to in my college days. I wasn't really looking for a video game. I was not thrilled with the state of card games and miniature games at the time. My interest in Chess had been virtually nil since graduating high school. I'd had a little passing familiarity with Go and Shoji depictions in anime and poked around the Internet a pit after the subject. This lead to two consequences: binge-watching Hikaru no Go on Hulu and visiting the local chapter of the American Go Association out at the university.

I received a few lessons, read some good introductory books, started up accounts on KGS and IGS and became a bit obsessive (like I always do studying a new game) for a few months until life got back to normal. I made a good friend at the AGA Club that was 2 Dan and willing to teach. I took game records from my mistakes and analyzed them. I took my time and I was willing to learn things like a child when necessary. Even with the family commitments and general half-assing that I'd do I managed to put in my time as a Double Digit Kyu in about a year and a half.

Then things go super-busy for a while. Special-needs diagnosis for kids. Foreclosure. Bankruptcy. Etc. It wasn't the best environment to study Go in to get better, but at the same time I think my Go studies alongside my religious life kept me sane. I'm not sure exactly how to describe it. Sometimes when I couldn't find the words to express myself my Go work things out for me. I dunno, it sounds pretty darn hokey in retrospect, but whatever helps you cope at the time, right?

Things have been more laid back over the last two years. I guess I'm a 6k according the AGA right now. I'm a filthy casual right now, but I tend to at least watch a game a day on KGS or IGS on my phone or an iPad just to keep in the swing. I'll sometimes revisit some of my favorite books in those quite moments when the kids are all in bed before I manage to pass out.

In terms of time commitments, Go really didn't demand that I set aside a hard schedule - blocks of hours at a time to study or play. It required me to put in regular effort. Play a few games with records. Find a mistake. Learn from a mistake. Play a teaching game with an open mind. Listen. Learn. I'd say if you can squirrel away enough time to read a newspaper, you can watch a game a day. If you can put aside enough time to play a round of Golf, you've got the time to visit a Dan-level friend, cook steaks on the grill, and play 2-3 teaching games. Put "Fundamental Principles of Go," by Yulin Yang in your bathroom. Read "Lessons in the Fundamentals of Go," by Kageyama Toshiro, the next time you travel on an airplane or a train.

I think my biggest hang-up early was learning shape. I had to learn my way through the core dead and living shapes before I could put an end to the frustrating habit of losing groups I had no business losing. At least the 3-6 stone life and death shapes needed to be beaten into my skull along with the tiger's mouth, bamboo join, monkey jump, and when a one-space jump could actually be cut. I recommend getting Life and Death, Tetsuji, and Attack and Defense by James Davies on an SmartGo Books for iOS. The fact that you can actually play-back the diagrams interactively instead of just seeing a static numbered diagram is a really nice feature of the electronic copies of those books.

Best of luck to you! Enjoy the ride.

Marty Lund

I was fortunate not to pick up or develop too many bad habits when I was learning. You never really unlearn bad habits, you plaster over them.

Go is in many respects a Goldilocks game. Plays should not be too much this way, or too much that way, but just right. That said, most beginners have certain tendencies, but you may be different. For instance, most beginners play too passively, they develop too slowly, they grab stones instead of sacrificing them, they play too long in one area instead of shifting to greener pastures, they strengthen their opponent's stones and leave weaknesses behind in their own positions, they play stones too close together, they play them too far apart, etc., etc.



The main reason I did not pick up too many bad habits was that I picked up good habits from my opponents. Except for a game or two, my weakest opponent was a 5 kyu and my most frequent opponent was a 2 dan. So during your first year of play avoid playing against players who are not at least 5 stones better than you. You can still pick up bad habits from them, but mostly you will be picking up good things.

Books are good. Try to get a comprehensive set that covers the basics of life and death, the endgame, the opening, joseki, invasion and reduction, shape and tesuji.

Also, play over lots of professional games. You won't pick up bad habits from them. Pro games have everything, although much of their thinking is hidden. They are also inspirational.

I once read a letter to a go magazine by a man who retired at 50 and started studying go in earnest with a pro teacher. He had played in college but had not played after graduation. In one year he had made shodan, in another year he had made 2 dan, in another year 3 dan, in another year 4 dan, and in another year he made 5 dan at age 55. (And this was at a time when amateur 6 dan overlapped pro strength.)

Good luck!

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

I started playing at the age of 38, approximately 10 years ago. It took me eight months to reach 9k, another 16 months to reach 5k, and another 42 months to reach 1d (so about 5.5 years altogether). Currently 2d, optimistic of making 3d, but it does seem a very long way away.

My introduction was rather unexciting, I got shown the game by a chess playing friend. I beat him in our first game, which certainly was a nice start. I joined a local club shortly thereafter, and would say that was the biggest key to steady improvement over the years. There were many helpful and competitive players to point out my errors and provide me with targets to aim at. Getting to know real players has always much more enjoyable than playing people on the Internet. Rivals help enormously. I do play online, but generally struggle to motivate myself to put everything into it.

I did study the game quite obsessively in the early years, although looking back on it now I would say I actually studied more trying to get to 1d than to get to 9k, its just that the first year or so was probably the most exciting. That was when I'd dream about go stones and shapes. Having said that, the stronger I got the more I enjoyed the game, as in the beginning, essentially every move from pro games was a baffling mystery. Now I understand at least some of the most basic aspects of a few of their moves

I don't recall any roadblocks of note. Although looking back at my records I see I got demoted from 18k to 19k at one point

I have been fortunate to have had some good teachers along the way. When I was still a ddk in my first year, a 6d Japanese amateur came out to South Africa for six months, just to teach go to South Africans (an amazing story in itself). I played many games against him, and I credit him with a lot, both in attitude to the game and technical ability. He taught me how to really whack the stone down onto the board

More recently (when I was about 2k), I spent a month in China at a go school with Jeff Chang and MilanMilan (of KGS fame). That was an excellent experience, making many new go friends, finding new teachers, and learning lots of new skills. It was amazing to meet so many fascinating individuals, and of course China itself was a wonderful place to visit. I went in 2010 just before the Olympic Games, so the pollution in Beijing was more or less non-existent.

Most recently, I got to go to the World Amateur Go Championships in Japan as the South African representative. This too was a wonderful experience, again, for the opportunity to make new Go friends, visit a fascinating culture and, of course, to play some tough and competitive go, and get some pros to review my games. Possibly the best part, the teacher from eight years previously, who was now back in Japan, came along to meet me. It was very cool to play him again as a much stronger player. This time it was only a three stone game, and it was very close - I think I lost by two points, but no doubt he planned it that way

Apart from those highlights, I find taking lessons online the most effective way of sustaining interest and keeping the skills steadily improving. There are many teachers and courses available now, I can recommend in PM's if you're interested. So I do something like that approximately once a year.

I've also kept up my interest by volunteering to part of the council of the South African Go Association. Obviously the admin takes time away from playing or learning go, but I think it's important to give something back if you can, and I'm quite good at that sort of thing. One of my recent successes in this regard was motivating to get South Africa to become part of the European Go Federation. This has opened up many new opportunities for us, for instance, we're now taking part in the Pandanet European Team Championship, which we're enjoying enormously.

During this time I've also been raising two young kids (one is a teenager now), so I've certainly battled with finding enough time along the way. Mostly I just got used to getting by with less sleep My wife jokes that she is a "go widow" but I don't think she minds too much to the time I spend on Go (we're still married!) - and she didn't me going to China on my own for a month.

1. Nice to meet another Hikaru no Go fan. After watching the whole anime, I realize it covered almost the entire aspect of the Go game, ranging from Go cafe's, Internet Go, Insei system etc. Only thing it missed out was on helpful Go forums like this one and Internet Go schools. Hikaru didn't need any I guess, with Sai at his side.

2. Thank you for the sagely advice. Sort of like physical exercise I guess, it's best to do things regularly with progressively small overload to improve rather than binge and get injured. With Go, probably it's mental damage...

Wow, what an amazing story! Seriously, 2 Dan after only 5+ years at age 38? You're my role model. Can you be my part time sensei?

To be truthful, I'm on the wrong side of 30's, so hearing your story is quite motivational. Maybe there's hope for an 'old' man like me after all.


I see! So it really helps to play against a good player. I like to but I'm quite a shy guy and afraid I would be:
1. Wasting the good player's time - He'd be snoozing away or worst...
2. Feeling bad after getting crushed

But maybe I need to reconsider after hearing your amazing story!


There's a Go club at my place but going there takes a concerted effort. Right now, I am looking at some Go schools. Do PM me, I would like to ask your personal opinion about an Internet Go school that I found interesting.


Get your wife interested in Go too Seriously though, Go is such an interesting game and I believe on the four cultured pursuits to being a Gentleman, so your wife shouldn't mind...