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 Post subject: A personal essay.
Post #1 Posted: Sat May 23, 2015 2:48 am 
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The following is an essay that I'm writing entirely for fun. I'm posting it here because its a work in progress and I'd like to hear suggestions on things that need discussed or things that I'm missing. Thanks in advance if you actually read the whole thing.

Go vs Chess
Which is the superior game?

I recently read through an interesting debate that was simply titled “Go vs Chess.” The debate was between two people, one a Go player and the other, a Chess player, where each debater defended his own game. It was an interesting read, however, I had a number of issues with the arguments on both sides of the debate which led to my disagreement with the ultimate conclusion which decided that Chess was a superior game on the basis that it is a fair game while Go is not. I don’t intent to labor into the specifics of my disagreements with the points made in the debate; instead, I will simply begin this essay at the starting point that was overlooked by the debaters themselves. In this I mean that the debaters failed to begin with a concrete basis of measurement. As an avid player of both games, it is my intention to convince the reader that Go is superior to Chess based on one aspect of the two games: Go is a better strategy game than Chess is.
Before one can begin to compare and contrast any two things, one must first decide the basis of comparison. For instance, before comparing apples to oranges, one must ask what is being compared; is it the taste of the fruit? The health benefits received from consuming each one? The ability to grow and therefore rely on each fruit? One must establish this point before beginning to assess the superiority of the things being compared. So for games like Go and Chess, one cannot simply ask which game is more fun, for instance, simply because this is a purely subjective question. Anyone could say that one game is far more fun than the other and they would be correct, but, they would only be speaking for themselves and their own experience. By the same token, we cannot ask which game is more challenging because once again, different people think differently and will find different things more challenging than others. It has been suggested that one can objectively assess the difficulty of each game based on things such as the margin of the skill rating between top players and beginners, or by the amount of time and effort required to reach proficiency. While these arguments may hold validity to an extent, this is not where I would like to settle my case. In my experience, both games are plenty deep enough to offer any human being a lifetime of challenges and there will always be more to learn. In other words, if you’re jumping from a cliff into the water and look on one side and see that the water is 20 feet deep and look on the other side to see that it is 100 feet deep, both sides are plenty deep enough to allow you to plunge into the water without fear of striking the bottom. So while one game may be deeper, neither can be mastered in a single lifetime and therefore the question of superiority cannot be based on difficulty.


Players of each of game will be quick to elaborate on the brilliance and elegance of their game and, when comparing the two, proponents on each side will make a compelling case. Chess players for instance will mention things such as the beauty of the tactics allowed by using dynamic pieces and the “dance” that takes place over the board. Go players on the other hand like to point to things like the relatively few rules which govern gameplay and the utter simplicity of the fundamentals of the game. Rest assured, any avid player of either game can give you an ear full that goes well beyond the examples mentioned here. None the less, both games clearly fall under the definition of a non-themed, zero-sum, perfect information, abstract strategy board game for two people. In my opinion, anything that meets this definition is simply a beautiful thing to behold and arguing over the brilliance of each is like comparing Mozart to Beethoven. One may have been better (by certain standards) than the other but it goes without saying that both were geniuses and the brilliance of their work is evident. Therefore, I will not be basing my conclusion on the merit of elegance.


As mentioned before, it’s been concluded by others that Chess if more fair than Go is. Now, of all things, the fairness of the game is something that I would consider to be highly important. I do not intend to make my conclusion based on this matter, however, it must be dealt with before proceeding because, in my opinion, a game that offers one player a better opportunity to win than the other is simply a flawed game and if it were determined that one game was flawed while the other was not than the question of superiority would be decided without further discussion. Therefore, let me elaborate on the statement that Go is unfair in comparison to Chess. The game of Go, being played in its ordinary fashion, almost always determines a winner and a loser. In other words, draws are extremely uncommon. Compare this to Chess where draws are hardly uncommon at all and are more and more common as the level of play improves. Even to the extent that the world renown Chess champion Bobby Fischer lamented a tragedy of the game which he referred to as “draw death”. By this he meant that eventually, players would become so skilled at the game that they would be unable to beat each other and would draw the game every time. He even went so far as to devise a variation of the game in order to make the game even more challenging. This draw death could be equated to two swordsmen that are so skilled at fighting that neither can slay the other. To use the same analogy, the game of Go would be like a sword fight that has no end short of the death of one of the competitors. Regardless of how long it takes, someone will win eventually. This doesn’t apply so well in practice simple because the game is not an infinite game but rather is restricted by the size of the board and therefore the number of legal moves available.
So the question is asked, how can the game be fair when a player can suffer defeat after playing a fundamentally perfect game? Well, for starters, let’s talk about this idea of “perfect play”. It’s an idea that is thrown around a lot when dealing with different issues of the games and it’s even debated whether such a thing exists. The proponents of Go even go so far as to give it a name which roughly translates from Japanese as “The hand of God”. Regardless of the theories on hypothetical perfect play, it is well understood that no human being is capable of such a thing. In fact, anyone who has ever learned either game beyond the basics will know that’s it’s simply unrealistic to talk about even coming close to playing perfectly. This is demonstrated by the fact that the top players in the world from both games will affirm that they are nowhere near “mastery” of their game and that even their gameplay is rich with mistakes.


So why, you might ask, is it even relevant what would happen in the instance of two players playing a perfect game against one another if it’s so unrealistic? Well, because an advantage is an advantage regardless of what skill level you are capable of. The question of the outcome of perfect play is only discussed in order to demonstrate the consequence of the advantage. All this to say, does one player have even a slight advantage in the game of Go? In order to answer this, I must diverge into the specifics of the game. In the game of Go, you have two players. One takes the color black and the other, white. It is black who has the privilege of the first move and is therefore said to have a distinct advantage because of this. This disadvantage to the white player was long ago recognized as a problem within the game and was remedied by the fact that the game is won by accumulating points. The experts of the game then decided to implement what is now called komidashi which is a Japanese word which translates “compensation.” Komidashi means that the player who plays white, and therefore moves second, begins the game with bonus points already added to that players score in order to balance the advantage of the first move. Rest assured, there has been plenty of technical analysis and estimation from top experts of the game to establish exactly what the first move advantage is worth. While there is a general agreement about the proper komidashi to be used, one thing that seems evident is that it is not a whole number but rather a fraction. The problem with this is that there are no fractional points on a Go board. A player is only capable of accumulating whole points. In order to settle this, it was decided that komidashi would contain a half point on top of the initial whole points given. The theory behind this is that we are uncertain of the exact value of komi and therefore, by allowing a half point, it is unknowable which player has the very slight advantage over the other. For example, if it was decided that komi was worth somewhere between six and seven points, a six and a half point komi would insure that the game is as balanced as it could be and it is un known whether the actually number should be higher than six and a half or lower.


Another added benefit of the half point is that it almost entirely prevents draws from ever happening. This being said, whenever a player wins by a half point, it is actually not uncertain which player exhibited the best play. Does this make the game unfair? If it does than the game of Chess is guilty of the same thing. When you give one player the first move and the other player receives compensation points, you’re giving each player a different advantage to work with (similar to giving one fighter a long sword and the other, a short sword and a shield). Advocates of the game of Chess will argue that the game is perfectly fair because both sides receive an advantage. The player who moves first gets the first move of course and the other player gets information of the former players plan before having to commit to his first move. This is seen as an imbalance but is mostly agreed upon as a fair advantage on both sides. I see no difference between this imbalance and the one offered by the game of Go.


In conclusion, I don’t believe the game of Go is unfair in any way, however, if you are to stick with such an argument, you must also accept that which is present in Chess as well. It should be clear at this point that the two games under discussion cannot be compared on the merit of fairness (either both are fair or both are slightly unfair).
So with everything said, why is it that I consider Go to be superior to Chess? The answer is simple: these are both strategy games and Go allows for a more sophisticated level of strategy than Chess does. Of course, I can’t make a statement like this without setting a standard for that as well. So what is it that determines the level and nature of strategy found within a game? All strategy in all areas of like including boards games, sports, economics, military leadership, or saving money on groceries, are ultimately defined by the options you’re given and your ability to assess and utilize those options. When studying abstract strategy board games, the basic fundamental strategy is to make decisions that expand your own options while limiting that of your opponent. The game of Chess for instance, is won by bringing your opponent to a position in which he has no options left. You might say that the goal of Go is the same but more implicitly. That being said, what makes the strategy of a game rich, complex, elegant and extraordinary is the number of options given to each contestant. No one would deny that both Chess and Go have better strategy than the game of Tic-Tac-Toe. This is because Tic-Tac-Toe is a very “small” game and is decided within only a handful of moves and even the first move of the game only allows nine options which decrease with every move. Chess and Go on the other hand, are far more complex. A game of Chess will average around eighty plays from each side and a game of Go, around 200. More than this, on each and every move of the game until the end, the number of options on each move is vast. Nonetheless, after studying both games, I can safely affirm that the game of Go allows for far more variation than Chess and has many more (exponentially more) possibilities to choose from throughout the entire game. It’s been argued that even though the first move of Go allow 361 different move options, there are only roughly forty to fifty that an experienced played would actually consider. For one, this is far more than allowed in the game of Chess. But even more than this, you’re assuming a certain level of skill by the contestants which is not relevant to the nature of the game. What may be obvious to a top player may not be to everyone and therefore all options must be taken into account. The game of Go starts with 361 options. The game of Chess, Eighteen. I would elaborate on the amount of choices which are presented as the game progresses; however, my point should be clear. There are simply far more ways to approach a game of Go than a game of Chess. All of this to say, the game of Go does a better job at presenting the players with good, competitive strategy than the game of Chess does. Though it is hardly relevant to the argument, it’s worth noting that I have met a number of people (myself included) that have played Chess for years, discovered Go and then put Chess on the back burner in order to take Go more seriously. I have yet to meet a single person that has truly given Go a shot and progressed passed beginner level and then decided to pursue Chess more seriously.


There are a number of things that can be compared between Chess and Go as we have seen, however, when strictly considering the strategic element of each game, it is obvious that Go is the champion in abstract strategic complexity. In fact, I have yet to encounter another board game that I would say even competes with Go in this regard. Simply put: Go is the ultimate strategy game.

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Last edited by Joelnelsonb on Sat May 23, 2015 8:19 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Post #2 Posted: Sat May 23, 2015 3:45 am 
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Hi Joel,

That's a lot of work. I appreciate the effort you put into it. I actually read the whole thing.

First impressions:
  • Paragraphs would be nice. Well organized paragraphs, even better.
  • Arguments -- unsatisfying.
  • What are the respective Go & chess levels of the 3 people mentioned: the 2 people discussing Go vs. chess, and yourself. This matters. A great deal.
  • Can we read the original discussion between the 2 people ? Is it readily available online ?

Examples:
  • Fairness -- arguments unsatisfying.
  • Swordsmanship mentioned. Again, the level of understanding of swordsmanship, or some kind of martial art, matters.
  • Complexity, "better" or "worse" strategies -- arguments unsatisfying. For example, Tic-Tac-Toe mentioned. We can imagine playing TTT on a 100x100 grid -- based on first instinct, I think it's impossible for either side to win (to have 100 in a row). But a 100x100 TTT is clearly much more "complex" than a 3x3 TTT. But it doesn't make it more "fun" or more "strategic". Pure "complexity" alone is insufficient and unsatisfying as an argument. Another example would be rearranging grains of sand at the beach -- complex, immensely yes, fun or strategic... maybe not.

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 Post subject: Re: A personal essay.
Post #3 Posted: Sat May 23, 2015 4:04 am 
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Thanks Ed! I have it on a word document and thats how it comes out when I post it for some reason (without paragraphs). http://www.debate.org/debates/Go-is-an- ... -Chess./1/

Ill answer your questions in my next edit.

Also, the intention was for it to be presentable to the commonwealth (non go or chess players). So I didnt want to get into much detail of actual gameplay. Also, it is a work in progress so what sort of things would you like to see the arguments include?

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Last edited by Joelnelsonb on Sat May 23, 2015 4:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #4 Posted: Sat May 23, 2015 4:06 am 
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Checkers is better, clearly. At least on drugs.

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Post #5 Posted: Sat May 23, 2015 4:17 am 
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Joelnelsonb wrote:
it is a work in progress so what sort of things would you like to see the arguments include?
Hi Joel,

Yea, I understand it's a work in progress and you're looking for feedback.
Example: instead of 'pure' complexity, I'm curious about the state of current research in chess v. Go.
How many papers are published about computer chess in recent years ?
How about for Go ? Now, this may say more about current computer science research than about Go v. chess themselves, but I'm curious -- I honestly don't know.

If it turns out there are many more published papers in Go than in chess (or vice versa), then the next question is why. And the answer may or may not have bearing on your thesis.

Meta-discussion:
On YouTube, and on the internet in general,
we find an immense amount of videos and articles with discussions on a great variety of topics.

One example is physics. To be more specific, let's say quantum mechanics (QM).
Now, a high school student who doesn't have any knowledge or experience with calculus yet
can post an article or video about QM. That's one level of understanding.
Another person, say Richard Feynman, if he were still alive today, could also talk about QM;
that's another level of understanding.

In Go, for example, there is a recent thread by a beginner
who is struggling with how to score. Because it is still difficult for this person to evaluate live and dead groups.
If this person discusses Go, it is one level of understanding.

If a good-level Go pro discusses Go, it would be another level of understanding.

Of course, Go level and communication skills are independent of each other.
There have been numerous threads here related to discussions in this area.

A person can be around 10 kyu in Go skills, but an excellent communicator and/or teacher to beginners.
A Go pro can be very good on the board, but terrible as a communicator.

So although Go level and communication skills are independent of each other,
Go level (or chess level) can affect the communication --
as mentioned above in the case of a beginner discussing Go.

Another interesting example: one programmer who wrote a Go program
that's already pro level at 9x9, and maybe 4-stone handicap from pro at 19x19 --
this person himself is approx. 6 or 7 stones from pro.
If he discusses Go, it's an interesting situation because of both his Go level
and his software skills and understanding.

Here, it's a discussion/debate about some deeper, non-trivial aspects of Go and chess;
so the respective Go and chess levels of the people -- as well as their communication skills,
and any other background info or expertise -- matter, to me. :)

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Post #6 Posted: Sat May 23, 2015 5:33 am 
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EdLee wrote:
[*]Paragraphs would be nice. Well organized paragraphs, even better.


That is actually why I did not read it all - to difficult to read in one mass.

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Post #7 Posted: Sat May 23, 2015 8:20 am 
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It may be easier now.

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Thinking like a go player during a game of chess is like bringing a knife to a gun-fight. Thinking like a chess player during a game of go feels like getting knifed while you're holding a gun...

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Post #8 Posted: Sat May 23, 2015 9:30 am 
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I inserted even more paragraphs ; )

Joelnelsonb wrote:
Go vs Chess - Which is the superior game?

I recently read through an interesting debate that was simply titled “Go vs Chess.”
The debate was between two people, one a Go player and the other, a Chess player, where each debater defended his own game. It was an interesting read, however, I had a number of issues with the arguments on both sides of the debate which led to my disagreement with the ultimate conclusion which decided that Chess was a superior game on the basis that it is a fair game while Go is not. I don’t intent to labor into the specifics of my disagreements with the points made in the debate; instead, I will simply begin this essay at the starting point that was overlooked by the debaters themselves.
In this I mean that the debaters failed to begin with a concrete basis of measurement. As an avid player of both games, it is my intention to convince the reader that Go is superior to Chess based on one aspect of the two games: Go is a better strategy game than Chess is.


Before one can begin to compare and contrast any two things, one must first decide the basis of comparison. For instance, before comparing apples to oranges, one must ask what is being compared; is it the taste of the fruit? The health benefits received from consuming each one? The ability to grow and therefore rely on each fruit? One must establish this point before beginning to assess the superiority of the things being compared.
So for games like Go and Chess, one cannot simply ask which game is more fun, for instance, simply because this is a purely subjective question. Anyone could say that one game is far more fun than the other and they would be correct, but, they would only be speaking for themselves and their own experience. By the same token, we cannot ask which game is more challenging because once again, different people think differently and will find different things more challenging than others. It has been suggested that one can objectively assess the difficulty of each game based on things such as the margin of the skill rating between top players and beginners, or by the amount of time and effort required to reach proficiency. While these arguments may hold validity to an extent, this is not where I would like to settle my case. In my experience, both games are plenty deep enough to offer any human being a lifetime of challenges and there will always be more to learn. In other words, if you’re jumping from a cliff into the water and look on one side and see that the water is 20 feet deep and look on the other side to see that it is 100 feet deep, both sides are plenty deep enough to allow you to plunge into the water without fear of striking the bottom. So while one game may be deeper, neither can be mastered in a single lifetime and therefore the question of superiority cannot be based on difficulty.


Players of each of game will be quick to elaborate on the brilliance and elegance of their game and, when comparing the two, proponents on each side will make a compelling case.
Chess players for instance will mention things such as the beauty of the tactics allowed by using dynamic pieces and the “dance” that takes place over the board. Go players on the other hand like to point to things like the relatively few rules which govern gameplay and the utter simplicity of the fundamentals of the game. Rest assured, any avid player of either game can give you an ear full that goes well beyond the examples mentioned here. None the less, both games clearly fall under the definition of a non-themed, zero-sum, perfect information, abstract strategy board game for two people.
In my opinion, anything that meets this definition is simply a beautiful thing to behold and arguing over the brilliance of each is like comparing Mozart to Beethoven. One may have been better (by certain standards) than the other but it goes without saying that both were geniuses and the brilliance of their work is evident. Therefore, I will not be basing my conclusion on the merit of elegance.


As mentioned before, it’s been concluded by others that Chess if more fair than Go is. Now, of all things, the fairness of the game is something that I would consider to be highly important. I do not intend to make my conclusion based on this matter, however, it must be dealt with before proceeding because, in my opinion, a game that offers one player a better opportunity to win than the other is simply a flawed game and if it were determined that one game was flawed while the other was not than the question of superiority would be decided without further discussion. Therefore, let me elaborate on the statement that Go is unfair in comparison to Chess.
The game of Go, being played in its ordinary fashion, almost always determines a winner and a loser. In other words, draws are extremely uncommon. Compare this to Chess where draws are hardly uncommon at all and are more and more common as the level of play improves. Even to the extent that the world renown Chess champion Bobby Fischer lamented a tragedy of the game which he referred to as “draw death”. By this he meant that eventually, players would become so skilled at the game that they would be unable to beat each other and would draw the game every time. He even went so far as to devise a variation of the game in order to make the game even more challenging. This draw death could be equated to two swordsmen that are so skilled at fighting that neither can slay the other. To use the same analogy, the game of Go would be like a sword fight that has no end short of the death of one of the competitors. Regardless of how long it takes, someone will win eventually. This doesn’t apply so well in practice simple because the game is not an infinite game but rather is restricted by the size of the board and therefore the number of legal moves available.
So the question is asked, how can the game be fair when a player can suffer defeat after playing a fundamentally perfect game? Well, for starters, let’s talk about this idea of “perfect play”. It’s an idea that is thrown around a lot when dealing with different issues of the games and it’s even debated whether such a thing exists. The proponents of Go even go so far as to give it a name which roughly translates from Japanese as “The hand of God”. Regardless of the theories on hypothetical perfect play, it is well understood that no human being is capable of such a thing. In fact, anyone who has ever learned either game beyond the basics will know that’s it’s simply unrealistic to talk about even coming close to playing perfectly. This is demonstrated by the fact that the top players in the world from both games will affirm that they are nowhere near “mastery” of their game and that even their gameplay is rich with mistakes.


So why, you might ask, is it even relevant what would happen in the instance of two players playing a perfect game against one another if it’s so unrealistic? Well, because an advantage is an advantage regardless of what skill level you are capable of. The question of the outcome of perfect play is only discussed in order to demonstrate the consequence of the advantage. All this to say, does one player have even a slight advantage in the game of Go? In order to answer this, I must diverge into the specifics of the game.
In the game of Go, you have two players. One takes the color black and the other, white. It is black who has the privilege of the first move and is therefore said to have a distinct advantage because of this. This disadvantage to the white player was long ago recognized as a problem within the game and was remedied by the fact that the game is won by accumulating points. The experts of the game then decided to implement what is now called komidashi which is a Japanese word which translates “compensation.”
Komidashi means that the player who plays white, and therefore moves second, begins the game with bonus points already added to that players score in order to balance the advantage of the first move. Rest assured, there has been plenty of technical analysis and estimation from top experts of the game to establish exactly what the first move advantage is worth. While there is a general agreement about the proper komidashi to be used, one thing that seems evident is that it is not a whole number but rather a fraction. The problem with this is that there are no fractional points on a Go board. A player is only capable of accumulating whole points. In order to settle this, it was decided that komidashi would contain a half point on top of the initial whole points given. The theory behind this is that we are uncertain of the exact value of komi and therefore, by allowing a half point, it is unknowable which player has the very slight advantage over the other. For example, if it was decided that komi was worth somewhere between six and seven points, a six and a half point komi would insure that the game is as balanced as it could be and it is un known whether the actually number should be higher than six and a half or lower.


Another added benefit of the half point is that it almost entirely prevents draws from ever happening. This being said, whenever a player wins by a half point, it is actually not uncertain which player exhibited the best play. Does this make the game unfair? If it does than the game of Chess is guilty of the same thing. When you give one player the first move and the other player receives compensation points, you’re giving each player a different advantage to work with (similar to giving one fighter a long sword and the other, a short sword and a shield). Advocates of the game of Chess will argue that the game is perfectly fair because both sides receive an advantage. The player who moves first gets the first move of course and the other player gets information of the former players plan before having to commit to his first move. This is seen as an imbalance but is mostly agreed upon as a fair advantage on both sides. I see no difference between this imbalance and the one offered by the game of Go.


In conclusion, I don’t believe the game of Go is unfair in any way, however, if you are to stick with such an argument, you must also accept that which is present in Chess as well. It should be clear at this point that the two games under discussion cannot be compared on the merit of fairness (either both are fair or both are slightly unfair).

So with everything said, why is it that I consider Go to be superior to Chess?
The answer is simple: these are both strategy games and Go allows for a more sophisticated level of strategy than Chess does. Of course, I can’t make a statement like this without setting a standard for that as well. So what is it that determines the level and nature of strategy found within a game? All strategy in all areas of like including boards games, sports, economics, military leadership, or saving money on groceries, are ultimately defined by the options you’re given and your ability to assess and utilize those options. When studying abstract strategy board games, the basic fundamental strategy is to make decisions that expand your own options while limiting that of your opponent.

The game of Chess for instance, is won by bringing your opponent to a position in which he has no options left. You might say that the goal of Go is the same but more implicitly. That being said, what makes the strategy of a game rich, complex, elegant and extraordinary is the number of options given to each contestant. No one would deny that both Chess and Go have better strategy than the game of Tic-Tac-Toe. This is because Tic-Tac-Toe is a very “small” game and is decided within only a handful of moves and even the first move of the game only allows nine options which decrease with every move. Chess and Go on the other hand, are far more complex. A game of Chess will average around eighty plays from each side and a game of Go, around 200. More than this, on each and every move of the game until the end, the number of options on each move is vast.
Nonetheless, after studying both games, I can safely affirm that the game of Go allows for far more variation than Chess and has many more (exponentially more) possibilities to choose from throughout the entire game. It’s been argued that even though the first move of Go allow 361 different move options, there are only roughly forty to fifty that an experienced played would actually consider. For one, this is far more than allowed in the game of Chess. But even more than this, you’re assuming a certain level of skill by the contestants which is not relevant to the nature of the game. What may be obvious to a top player may not be to everyone and therefore all options must be taken into account. The game of Go starts with 361 options. The game of Chess, Eighteen. I would elaborate on the amount of choices which are presented as the game progresses; however, my point should be clear. There are simply far more ways to approach a game of Go than a game of Chess. All of this to say, the game of Go does a better job at presenting the players with good, competitive strategy than the game of Chess does. Though it is hardly relevant to the argument, it’s worth noting that I have met a number of people (myself included) that have played Chess for years, discovered Go and then put Chess on the back burner in order to take Go more seriously. I have yet to meet a single person that has truly given Go a shot and progressed passed beginner level and then decided to pursue Chess more seriously.


There are a number of things that can be compared between Chess and Go as we have seen, however, when strictly considering the strategic element of each game, it is obvious that Go is the champion in abstract strategic complexity. In fact, I have yet to encounter another board game that I would say even competes with Go in this regard. Simply put: Go is the ultimate strategy game.


After reading it all, my opinion would be: Way too long. You use too many words to say too few things. After reading everything, I got the answer to your question but I was not any more enlighted than before. I felt the ground for your comparison is very artifically. As Ed Lee pointed out, just saying your have more options and thus a better game is a bit thin.
The other point is that you try to fabricate an objective truth. In my opinion that's already a flawed start into the whole debate. Chess and Go differ in so many aspects, trying to deliver a final verdict will likely turn out just as yours - a tad artifical and not even close to an objective truth.

You yourself mentioned that comparing Mozart to Beethoven is not a sensible endeavour but solely on the ground of elegance. Would you ever follow-up on the idea to count the instruments they used for their music? How much music they compose or how long on average their compositions are?

In my opinion Go and Chess have one common ground, they are games. Games should make fun. You have obviously more fun playing Go. End of story.

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Post #9 Posted: Sat May 23, 2015 9:58 am 
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Thanks (noted)! I plan to add in a section where I explain that I'm not trying to speak to the inherent quality of either game, nor am I saying that one is ultimately a "better game" altogether (If I literally said those words, I wrote this after an 24 hour Go binge, much editing is needed). I'm simply choosing strategy as one thing to compare between the two games and explaining which one I think does a better job. I get what you mean though, I didn't mean to sound quite so objective about everything. I think mentally, I already knew that I would actually have a paragraph at the beginning giving my gaming credentials and the purpose of the essay.

Also, I've had a few tell me that I use far too many words, another thing to brush up.

Edit: Now I see, I started with the question of which one is "superior" because that was the title of the debate that I'm refuting and didn't really change gears into talking about one single element of the game. Ultimately, what I'm trying to say is that if someone said to me "I love anything strategy, what's the best strategic challenge you know of?" I couldn't point anywhere but to Go.

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Post #10 Posted: Sat May 23, 2015 10:09 am 
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EdLee: Given that I'm a double digit kyu, and I don't know the strengths of the debaters mentioned, I attempted to write in such a manner that would make my understanding of the game irrelevant. The idea is that anyone can read the essay and understand the points being made and make a decision, even without knowing anything about the actual gameplay if so. How can I present better so that I don't sound like I think I'm all that?

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Post #11 Posted: Sat May 23, 2015 10:24 am 
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Joelnelsonb wrote:
Ultimately, what I'm trying to say is that if someone said to me "I love anything strategy, what's the best strategic challenge you know of?" I couldn't point anywhere but to Go.


Then I would write about exactly that. But base it solely on an emotional level.
Give a quick overview about what Go is, starting with just one quintessential sentence and then write down what you love about Go, why and how it resonates with you. Here you can take some comparison, if you feel a non-Go-player would have a difficult time relating but I would leave Chess entirely out of the picture.

This will - in my opinion - take the sting out of the slight arrogant undertone which I now can read between the lines.

In short, write a love-letter about Go, not a scientific paper. If you ever want to win an argument, emotion is more often the key than science ; )

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Post #12 Posted: Sat May 23, 2015 10:57 am 
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Well, another reason I wanted to write this was because I felt strongly against the argument I was refuting given that I played Chess for 20 years and then turned to Go because of my craving for more variation and strategic option. So it's kinda like when someone becomes religious or quits following a religion, they often write a letter explaining what did it for them. This is kinda that.

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Post #13 Posted: Sat May 23, 2015 11:53 am 
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That's well and sound but the problem lies within the premsie of refuting an argument (or the result thereof), which is in essence completely pointless and therefore irrelevant. You know the saying about wrestling with a pig?

Rating Chess above Go is an opinion, you can have many and very good reasons for it. But all of them will be personal and subjective. The same is true for Go. You might prefer it now over Chess and you clearly have your reasons, but I wouldn't argue them for the sake of Go's superiority over Chess. Be personal and let the joy and the positive be in the limelight. Not some crafted difference, which is very much open for argument in itself.

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Post #14 Posted: Sat May 23, 2015 3:04 pm 
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Personally, I find that there is a question infinitely more interesting, and so infinitely more worthy of such efforts and esseys.

The question is: Why do people so desperately try to prove the superiority of one game above the other?!?!?!

I find it really baffling.
And I have seen it on both sides - chess and Go. And poker, and checkers, and bridge, and... (insert almost any non-trivial game here, even arcade.) Its like tryint to prove that cat is a better pet than dog, or goldfish, or hamster...

What's the point?
Some people will always have more fun playing this, others will have more fun playing that, its all very subjective. And it is good so. And thus, the superior game is always the one which gives you personally more pleasure, there is really no other argument, I think. Even the complexity argument, which might be the most "objective", is pure crock - one can easily come up with games much more complex than Go wich would be boring to play.

So why do people have this need? Inner insecurity? This is the only reason I can see.

I am not joking, this is seriously something that has been puzzling me to years. If anybody has any insight, please share. I would welcome a good essey on that subject.

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Post #15 Posted: Sun May 24, 2015 12:26 am 
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Bantari wrote:
Its like tryint to prove that cat is a better pet than dog, or goldfish, or hamster...


Well we know a dog is better than a wife, just lock both of them in the boot (trunk) of your car for an hour and see which is happy to see you when you open it. ;-)


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Post #16 Posted: Sun May 24, 2015 9:19 am 
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Let me remind everyone that this essay was written "entirely for fun". I posted it here for feedback on what could be done to improve it (thanks Ed). I decided to write it after reading a debate that I disagreed with and wanted to write a rebuttal. I truly believe that Go is a superior strategy game to Chess. If you disagree, why don't your write a 2500 word essay explaining why. If you feel like the essay should not have been written in the first place, thank you for reading and have a nice day. I am going to finish it, not rewrite it. And any help in making it the greatest essay it can be will be appreciated. If you can persuade me that I'm wrong about my theory, in an educated manner, than when I'm finished with this one, I will have fun writing another essay refuting this one. I'm not trying to write a gospel; you don't have to believe too.

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Post #17 Posted: Sun May 24, 2015 10:54 am 
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Joelnelsonb wrote:
Let me remind everyone that this essay was written "entirely for fun". I posted it here for feedback on what could be done to improve it (thanks Ed).

I felt that SoDesuNe gave some excellent feedback on some areas for improvement.

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Post #18 Posted: Sun May 24, 2015 11:22 am 
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I prefer Go over Chess, but I'm not sure I can vocalize why with any ease.

I think Go has more depth, seemingly endless variations than Chess, especially for lower level players. I was never a great Chess player. I basically quit playing when I got to the level that I started needing to memorize named openings to improve any further. I'm kind of at that similar point in my Go playing now with joseki, though it's taken me much, much longer to get to this same point, and its been a very enjoyable long road at that.

There's something romantic about Chess. The personalities of the pieces, how it stirs the imagination and excitement of warfare of days gone by. The beautiful, medieval artwork.

Go seems almost plain and boring by a simple comparison, yet I can't get over how such simplicity leads to such astounding complexity and wide variation. And it feels less about violent killing and more about mutual sharing (yet there still can be some exciting and violent killing too).

Go appeals more to my logical puzzle solving side than Chess does for me.

But both are still great games. I will still play either, but my preference leans quite heavily toward Go. I just wish there were more horsies :)


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Post #19 Posted: Sun May 24, 2015 11:40 am 
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I have had some thoughts about your essay. Let me briefly highlight them.

First, I agree that chess is a much more tactical game than go, and go is a much more strategical game. I was originally drawn to go because it is a game of strategy, but I would not say that that makes it better than chess.

Why the difference between the two games? For one thing, chess starts on an 8x8 board which is half full; go starts on an empty 19x19 board. Right from the start, captures and threats to capture are very important in chess, while staking out different areas of the board is important in go. The sparseness of the go board makes for strategy rather than close fighting. Another thing is the number of fronts. Go typically takes place on several fronts, up to the very end of the game; does chess ever have more than two fronts?

The chess board can be relatively sparsely populated, as well. I think that there is a great deal of strategy in the long endgames that have been discovered in the last couple of decades.

One variant of go that has simple tactics is the Capture Game, where the object is to capture one or more of the opponent's stones. The very fact that it has simpler tactics indicates that it is more strategical than regular go. In regular go Black dominates the 7x7, for instance, but it is so easy for White to make a small, living group in the capture game that White can often effectively open a second front on the 7x7. To me, the capture game is definitely superior to regular go on the 7x7. However, I much prefer the more tactical game of regular go on the 19x19. :)

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Post #20 Posted: Tue May 26, 2015 2:37 pm 
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I believe an apple is better than an orange. There are several reasons. First, you can easily eat the peel of an apple and, therefore, it requires less work to receive the nutrients and sugars. It is true that you typically do not eat the core, but eating around the core is easier than stripping away the skin of an orange. Apples also come in more varieties and, therefore, allow the eater to choose from many levels of sweetness, tartness, and texture. Also, as I live in a northern climate, oranges cannot grow outside of greenhouses nearby and, therefore, choosing apples helps to support local Michigan farmers.

The problem is, at the end of the day, I'm comparing apples and oranges. They are both fruits, but they are very different fruits.

---

Being a member of a "Go and Chess Club" I do often find people debating about the merits of the various games. I personally prefer go, but there are members who like chess more. One of these chess players is adamant that chess is the best game in the world. I am adamant that go is the best game in the world. We eventually came to this agreement: the games are not the same.

We put it this way: "Go is a game of construction. Chess is a game of destruction."

In many ways, the two games are opposites. Go begins with an empty board and the game becomes settled as the board is filled. Chess begins with a full board and the game becomes settled as the board is cleared. The objective of go is broad and achieved with simplicity: to claim a majority of the board - any part of the board - using identical pieces that always are placed the same way. While the objective of chess is specific and achieved with complexity: to capture one piece - specifically the king - using a variety of piece types that can vary in their movements depending on the situation. Go is a game of fixed placement, while chess is a game of dynamic movement.

It is true that the games do share commonalities, but they are very different games.

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