Enjoy the straightforward approach to journaling he does here and found this news pretty inspiring particularly in light of the last several journal entries. Congratulations Kirby! Would be wonderful to read a tournament report if ever feel like writing one up.

_________________
"Tsumegos are for reading power and Tesujis for knowing which moves to read"

Thanks for your reports, I very much enjoyed reading them!

_________________
Patience, grasshopper.

I will post a few things in this thread in the AGA forum. It seems, however, that some of those commenting on this thread are more concerned about the marketing of the event. Please understand that this is all run by volunteers with minimal budget and likely will be for some time, unless a Kirsan Ilyumzhinov of Go comes along, and with respect to that, one should be careful about one's wishes...

The EGF website has just undergone a big revamp, hopefully the next step would be to add some better information about the Professional system to it.
Like:
- a list of people who had gone to study with CEGO
- a list of EGF professionals, with biography, pictures, contact details
- a list of old Grand Prix results, a dedicated Grand Prix calendar
- information about other stuff that the EGF promised to do; advertising Chinese Rules, giving Amateur Certificates

_________________
North Lecale

"The question was does anyone give a darn about GO in the West?"

Answer: "Yes."

So why did we not post about the European GO Congress?

For a host of reasons. I was not there. I work shifts, and have other responsibilites, my life is busy, and I need easy access to games. This is not meant as snarky, but as a simple rejoinder that for many of us we do not have time to be interested in all the aspects of GO. I would have loved to attend the European GO tourney. And I think the Czechs have made some great videos about matches. Hat tip!


There were also many interesting well thought out responses above. Some of which I agree with. We have a Pro system here in the US but I am far more familiar with Nick Sibicky, Drywin, Shawn Ray, and Hajin Lee than our own pros. When I heard we were starting a Pro system I thought that's nice, but how can it really work when we do not have any big money tourneys? What does it mean to be a Pro when you can't make a living off it? (Especially when there is only a handful of you) I mean can you do enough lessons to really put food on the table? So while I think it is admirable to have a Pro system, I am not sure how we are to best implement it here.

Truth is I am far more concerned about getting word out about GO and getting more people aware of it and playing it at all levels. I tend to think even if we have Pros it will not generate a large interest in the greater community, such as what happened with Bobby F and Boris Spassky. That was a unique convergence of factors.

I applaud the AGA for televising as much as it did. I think there having a Youtube channel is great! An active Facebook Page is also useful. I think more energy should be applied to helping promote GO at the local level. Intro videos, promotional videos, that are done well. Fliers, press releases, downloadable powerpoints, equipment for new clubs at an excellent rate.
Other promotional items. Please note it is easy to say this and so hard to implement with limited funds and mostly volunteers.

I think a competition between our Pros and the European Pros ( Best in the West?!) every other year, televised, with commentaries, a web page updates and game files would be of interest for our communities. And maybe we need to move the two Congresses further apart, they are too close. One in August and one in June? And definitely have some Pros attend from our two communities, give demos, teaching and a match between team Europe and USA!

In closing we all have ideas, and wish to see GO flourish. But there is no magic bullet, or scheme to grow it quickly. I want to thank all of those who work so hard to spread the love of the game, in the AGA, European GO Federation, our local clubs, L19x19, Senseis library, etc... And of course the large Professional organizations in Asia, that have supported us with time,and talent.

_________________
Walla Walla GO Club -(on FB)

We play because we enjoy the beauty of the game, the snap and feel of real stones, and meeting interesting people. Hope to see ya there! お願いします!

Anthony

Agreed this would be a nice list of things to have, but it appears to be asking a group of unpaid amateurs to do a lot of work for a group of people who want to make money out of go - and, unless I've missed something, for a group of people who haven't collectively done a huge amount for European go. On top of that, if time and resources of the amateurs are limited, are they not better off devoting what they have to the vast majority of their members, i.e. amateurs.

I would suggest your request could usefully be restated:

"The EGF website has just undergone a big revamp. With luck, as the next step, the European professionals will delegate/pay someone to add some better information about the Professional system to it."

Mutatis mutandis the AGA site.

Don't forget that the EGF voted democratically to set up the system. Therefore the EGF ought to do it, or delegate somebody to.Li Ting presented a large document on the subject at the latest AGM; so perhaps some of this is already planned; I really must read the document to see. From the EGF accounts I saw, it appeared to me that either the webmaster was paid a nominal amount, or they paid a proverbial-load for web hosting.

_________________
North Lecale

I don't understand why the AGA is so reluctant to post prize winnings for various events. There's at least one big money tournament every year (depending on your definition of "big"). The US Open Masters tournament at this year's Go Congress awarded over $12,300 in cash prizes. This is its second year in this current, nine round format (the web page is woefully out-of-date).

As far as I understand the issue right, there are at least two important issues in the pipeline:

-- How to make the public relations professional-like ?
-- How to make the EGF getting a professional approach ?

_________________
The really most difficult Go problem ever: https://igohatsuyoron120.de/index.htm
Igo Hatsuyōron #120 (really solved by KataGo)

I am glad to hear of it. However, once that money is spread out to 1st and 2nd place, etc., it is definitely not enough to live on or entice people to devote themselves to go. Which proves the point one can hardly make a living at GO in the West. Our Professionals are sanctioned, very good players but GO in the West is struggling with making a relevant Pro system. Pros bring excitement, and great games and generate interest but you need enough of a base to get excited about the Pros themselves.

I wonder has the AGA ever done a community outreach at its US GO open? Some type of event at a local mall, or invite schools, teachers etc... It seems like an excellent opportunity.

_________________
Walla Walla GO Club -(on FB)

We play because we enjoy the beauty of the game, the snap and feel of real stones, and meeting interesting people. Hope to see ya there! お願いします!

Anthony

I saw that some people from the EGF had been working on a brochure for publicity, although it looked to be a bit too long for my tastes. So far, I was impressed by the publicity generated in China, but not by that generated in Europe.

To my mind, the EGF could actually end up just splitting into 2 separate parts if it genuinely tries to support both amateur and professional Go at the same time. That seems to be the natural course.

_________________
North Lecale

There is this page if you click through about the CEGO online academy (and many of those players also went to train in China and includes the 4 now pros):
http://eurogofed.org/cego/#players

Or even easier that real-life games (which requires lots of jet fuel) would be an online tournament. I think a win-and-continue (there are 4 AGA and 4 EGF pros) with a game or two each weekend could be a good format. Another of the pros could provide commentary.

That is close to what I would I expect to see on the website. I suppose I had in mind the kind of thing an organisation like the Nihon Kiin has, except the EGF should add GoR and marketing information.

_________________
North Lecale

I also discovered that Pavol Lisy now has a website: http://www.go-teacher.com/

Great idea, I would watch!

_________________
Walla Walla GO Club -(on FB)

We play because we enjoy the beauty of the game, the snap and feel of real stones, and meeting interesting people. Hope to see ya there! お願いします!

Anthony

As far as I can tell, while having a CJK professional rank does not necessarily mean that one works as a professional go player, in east Asia, the reverse is practically always true: if one plays and teaches as a profession, one has a professional rank. In a sense, I think this is the case because of the sheer number of strong players. If you want a guarantee that you are getting advice from someone who really knows what they're talking about, a professional diploma shows that they have demonstrated their skill competitively. In contrast, in the west, strong players are rare enough that strong is strong enough. Western go players don't have the luxury of looking for the best of the best to learn from, because there is such a lack of strong players here. If you look, at say, the US Open, which in a good year might have 300 players, this is tiny compared to the playing population in Japan, for example. I'm pretty sure you could find a high-school tournament in a smaller city in Japan and still have more people playing there. For that matter, the entire current membership of the AGA is about the size of the student body at my own high school, only spread out across a good sized chunk of a continent.

Through wikipedia, the japanese go census estimated that there were approximately 4.1 million go players in Japan a few years ago. The Nihon Ki-in has about 450 professionals now, and the Kansai ki-in is smaller than that, though I can't find specific numbers. Even if we overestimate the total number of professionals in Japan at 1000, it's still one pro for every 4,100 go players. I suspect 600 is a much better estimate in any case. So, how many go pros would the entire playing population of the US support? The same site suggested a total playing population of 120,000 in the US, but this is also spread out across a country 20 times the size.

As a result, in any given area, it's hard to find enough go players to sustain a single professional, apart from a few major cities. While a lot of people seemed to be enamoured with the idea of being marked as a certified professional, looming over the less-skilled masses, actually making money at it in the west will continue to be very difficult for the foreseeable future. It's not a sound investment or plan to aim to become a US professional and support yourself for your life, especially when you're seen as 2nd class compared to those from Asian professional organizations. There are no big tournaments with game fees to help support you, the teaching market is much less discriminating since so little is available, and there's no distinct professional organization to help either.

As such, it makes little sense to speak of professionals in the west in the same manner as those in the east. There's no specific demand for anointed professionals, and there's little cultural stigma against professionals by income. To pretend otherwise is wishful thinking.

I don't think this is true. I recall an article, I think by Cyberoro, where Inseong was interviewed and discussing his ventures in teaching Go in Europe. One distinction he brought up was that it wasn't at all uncommon for strong amateurs to have students, and to get paid for teaching. But in Europe, it was a challenging in that many people were immediately turned off to considering a teacher if they weren't pro.

Personally, I think this is because there are so many high level go players in Asia, and it's understood that the competition to become a pro is very high - and involves a bit of luck. So while being a pro is certainly an achievement, it doesn't mean that not being a pro necessarily implies that you are significantly weaker.

I think as Go is becoming more popular in the West, this is starting to be more realized. The line between pro and high-level amateur is becoming more and more blurry.



In my opinion, the ball has to start rolling somewhere. Right now, it seems meaningless for there to be pros in the West. After all, some pros in Asia are probably at last 3 stones stronger.

But I think people should take it seriously. If it's taken seriously, the level will increase as Go becomes more popular. The level of Western pros will also increase.

_________________
be immersed

I've been exposed to the term long enough that this shouldn't happen, but I still keep thinking of this series:

It's entirely possible that I am misinformed on this. I certainly agree that there are many amateurs in Asia who are very close to pro-strength, if not there already.



I agree that if we want to end up with a serious professional presence or organization, we need to start somewhere, and it won't look glamorous at the beginning. I guess I find it hard to take the professional tournaments here seriously, though, as I haven't noticed much in way of professional activity by them apart from the kadoban series with Lee Sedol.

To my mind, the thing that really makes me think of professionals was the teacher's go tournament that happened earlier this year, with various teaching personalities competing. People knew who they were, and were interested in following the games. There was buzz, and much of it organic. If something like that continues, I could see it overshadowing the professional tournament system here because people care about and relate to the players. Sports thrive on sponsorship, to some degree, and sponsorship thrives on an audience.