It's not a pat on the back to say I don't have great talent. Or that I'm so weak because I don't focus hard enough.

Also, how can you say talent doesn't exist? Do the insei that get kicked out and have their dreams crushed just not work hard enough?

So how do some people get strong without hard work?

(I got to 1 dan in 1-2 years without doing what I would describe as hard work, so I think it would not be immodest of me to say I have some talent (or aptitude if you prefer that word) for this game).

Thank you.

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Patience, grasshopper.

Somehow, the fact that not everyone can get shodan in an ELO system is completely absent from this thread.

Dan levels are supposed to measure skill, not rating.

At the age of 2, Terence Tao tried to teach a fellow kid how to spell and add, things he learned from Sesame Street. I regret that at this age in life, my parents had yet to teach me the value of hard work, so I never did anything so precocious.

The good news is that he doesn't think you have to be a genius to do good work in math: https://terrytao.wordpress.com/career-a ... -do-maths/

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Occupy Babel!

Thanks for this article. One part I found interesting was the following:


There's a clear contrast that Terence draws here between mathematics as a sport vs. mathematics as an intellectual pursuit. For a sport, the objective *is* to win. Achieving the highest ranking, the highest score, the highest number of prizes and awards - they can all be motivating goals toward performing well in the sport. For an intellectual pursuit, in contrast, winning is not the objective. Ranking doesn't matter, awards don't matter. Simply trying to increase understanding matters.

In go, I think you can hold either perspective (or perhaps some combination!), depending on what drives you to the game. If you're not into the competitive aspect, maybe your rank doesn't matter. Maybe winning or getting prizes doesn't matter either. You just want to learn more about go for the sake of expanding go knowledge. For this, being a "genius" doesn't matter.

Another passage was also interesting:


This passage points to contribution, contributing something to the field despite not being a "genius". Certainly, this holds in go: Even if others are more knowledgeable, more efficient, more careful, more creative - if you know a reasonable amount about the game, there is some area in which you can "contribute to the field" of go.

Maybe you can organize a tournament. Maybe you can submit go problems to your colleagues. Maybe you can give some lectures to lower ranked players. Maybe you can clean up some pages on Senseis Library. Maybe you can make some informative posts on L19.

---

I think different people have different conclusions on what makes go worthwhile.

For some, the competitive nature is important, winning is important, and it's important to try to be the best (or maybe the best out of a smaller population). For these individuals, being a "genius" would certainly help

For others, competition is not important, winning is not important, and therefore, being a "genius" is not important, either. For these individuals, knowing a little bit about go is already enough. Value comes from making positive contributions to the field.

Most likely, it's healthy to value a little bit of both: competition and field contribution, some combination that works for you.

For both ends of the spectrum, working hard can lead to a better result. Whether your a competitive genius, or someone who aims to contribute to go in their own way... Greater efforts will certainly have some sort of impact.

---

Anyway, nice article. Thanks for sharing it.

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be immersed

Thanks daal for broaching this interesting topic.

I find it interesting that people get upset at the concept of some people having natural talent. Isn't this just normal or Normal even? Why would we doubt that aptitude for go is similar to many other things that fit some sort of bell curve?

Uberdude suggested the word aptitude. Maybe that's still too offensive? How about knack? Or we could just agree not to get uptight over nomenclature and just accept the phenomenon for what it is.

One thing to be clear about is this talent is not the same thing as intelligence. I know many very bright permanent-kyus. I also know dan players who can't hold their own in an argument. I see even less correlation with the nebulous concept of emotional intelligence.

The more important question is whether people without this knack can still break through with effort. I'd like to think the answer is yes. But I know several people that have tried and failed, and now just play go for fun rather than improvement.

And finally there is the idea that we all face a terminal plateau. Once you accept that, despite incredible effort, you will never reach the level of Ke Jie, then you admit that there is a limit to your future. The question is where is that plateau? Is it 7D for all of us? Or maybe some of us are capped at 5D, 1D, or even 5K. This could be true, even with hours-per-day study. Discouraging, but possible, no?

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- Brady
Want to see videos of low-dan mistakes and what to learn from them? Brady's Blunders

Agree with what wineandgolover says pretty much completely, but would like to add my take that one's plateau is unknown. I believe that usually, someone's plateau is higher than they think (e.g. If you think your plateau is 5k, probably it's really at least 3k).

For this reason, it becomes a matter of priority: if becoming a certain level is sufficiently important to you, it's reasonable to aim toward that goal, despite the real possibility that you might not make it.

Important things are worth fighting for, even though you might never get the result you want.

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be immersed

I think this also explains the hostility. If you see a lot of unreasonable assumptions about where a pleateau is, then the very idea of a plateau can start to look like an illusion that holds people back and gives them excuses. But the idea that no one ever has a plateau is just as self-serving as assuming that you've reached your own plateau, and your failure to improve has nothing to do with your own efforts.

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Occupy Babel!

I agree with that, too. But I don't think hostility is productive. Maybe if you're the one trying to improve, stay focused on your goal. Likewise, it may be kind to acknowledge to weaker players that they may have worked just as hard (or harder) than you (though, this seems difficult to prove one way or another - who knows who "really" worked harder).

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be immersed

Lulullul 5k plateau... I would very surprised if the normal plateau was at as low as 5d.

It is mostly defensiveness, and I don't mean this in a negative way. It is very well studied that children who are taught that, say, skill in mathematics is mostly related to effort do better than children who are taught it is mostly related to talent. Of course, it is still related to talent, but thinking too much about this keeps you from reaching your potential. So, no wonder that many good dan players are convinced that they reached their level just by hard work, because it is this attitude in addition to their talent that helped them gain their level.

It is the same reason why people who tend to gain weight when stressed out get very defensive when well-meaning people try to "convince" them that being overweight is bad. The defensive people know that they will never lose their weight while being stressed out about being overweight.

So, success is a lot about tricking your own mind. If you are stuck at a certain rank, maybe you should read some Zen-koans.
This: http://www.ashidakim.com/zenkoans/8greatwaves.html
and this:
A man came to Tao-hsin and said: "Please help me,"
Tao-hsin asked him "What is wrong with you?"
„This question is too difficult. Please help me.“
Tao-hsin replied: „There is nothing wrong with you.“
Disappointed the man left.
What a bad teacher Tao-hsin was.

Saw this article on the AGA website, and it reminded me of this thread

From the article:


I guess his take is largely a growth mindset, but also the awareness that the method you use to achieve your goal should be deliberate and efficient (just my interpretation from the text - I wasn't at the talk).

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be immersed

This is a great question. I signed up for this. I'm a little late to the party, but here are my thoughts.

I enjoy Go. But I haven't had the best experiences with the community. Not talking about 19x19, as I'm unfamiliar but the overall Western community. Besides just talent, which is somewhat uncontrollable, I think there are factors within the community that are controllable that do contribute to people stalling around shodan and even higher than shodan.

The community isn't always very friendly or open about discussing Go. There are typically several hundred people on KGS yet there is almost never any discussion about Go or high level Go. No Dan level players discussing how to help people around the kyu level. You typically only ever see people around 5kyu and weaker ever talk. I've asked questions and seen questions asked, but even though there are 500 people online only 1 or 2 talk. So if you want to ask dan level players for their thoughts on improving or books to get at your level, you get no answer.

It's tough to say, but I don't think the Go community has grown much in the West over the past several years. The numbers look about the same as they were years ago. That's another problem lack of growth. Maybe it would be better if we could play in person. I think there is probably quite the community around LA and New York, but the rest of country appears to be lacking if you want to play in person. I don't know maybe it's just me, but it seems difficult to make friends online. It's like it's difficult to make a connection with people. So it makes it tough for people to come together and be a community and care about one another.

Lack of knowledge on the subject in the West would be another one. A lot of people have to resort to books to learn unless they can afford to get lessons from Pros regularly. While there are plenty of books around the beginner level, once you start to approach shodan level there become fewer and fewer books to get that help explore and master the basics. That's what I think is key books that spend the entire book focusing on a concept, like aji, or sabaki, or invasion, etc. So that you can learn and master it. Not like the beginner books that only spend a chapter and a few examples on it. I feel like I have major weaknesses when it comes to the fundamentals that could be addressed but no one, even when I've played pros have been able to tell me what my weaknesses are and what I should work on. They just tell you 1-2 mistakes you make and that's it. Kind of difficult to grow from that.

I bought some Korean books a few years back. They are pretty popular, the Encyclopedia of Tesuji and Dictionary of Shape. The books were incredibly helpful and detailed. Formatted incredibly well. Why aren't they and books like this translated to English for the West? I know there are some pros in the West. Korean pros who know English, maybe some Chinese as well. It would be nice if we got some translations of whatever definitive books are out there in the East. Yet, nothing against Kiseido, but they appear to be publishing books by amateurs still with the Roadmap to Shodan series. I haven't read these books, but from the few reviews I've read they aren't very good. But since they are publishing new books, the money has to be there for translations of Go Books from South Korea or China. Seems like a no brainer to me to make money.

Another thing with intermediate and advanced books, is there aren't very many reviews on them. One or two doesn't really inspire confidence, especially when you have people around 5kyu to 8kyu typically doing the reviews. It would be nice if we had dans regularly reviewing books that way we had more of a consensus on what books to get at each level, how books compare to each other and what books really stand out. It would be really great if Pros could get a chance to take a look at many of our books and give their recommendations as well. Tell us which are good, and how they compare to books they used to study when they were learning.

People are less likely to quit if they have a direction to go in. The more dans in the community the more competition there will be. The more high level discussion there will be as well. There is also a higher likelihood that they can set up clubs where they'll be confident to teach. This seems like simple stuff that could help grow the community, but hasn't been done at all over the past several years as I've played Go.

This is not a new thing. For several years the membership of the AGA was around 600.



Actually, the first Ishi Press books were at a high level. Unfortunately, from what I hear, dan level books in English do not yet sell well. I expect that that will change in time, but it could take a long time.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Well I can't speak to AGA. I don't think anyone's going to purchase a membership with them if there is no one or even just a few people to play in their area. I was more speaking the online community hasn't really grown much from what I could see. In fact there were stronger players on KGS more regularly many years ago, judging by the few times I've been on recently. There haven't been many new books published, and there still isn't much info out there in the form of reviews or dan level commentary about Go.

About the book stuff. I know some of the older books from the 60s and 70s were high level, but I was talking about more modern (past 10-15 years) books as Go has changed a lot. The books don't have to be dan level. They could be sort of intermediate level around 3-5 kyu KGS minimum and stronger. They could focus on each concept and fundamental and helping players understand and master it. As far as I know the only Dan book level series out there is Graded Go Problems for Dans, but not very many reviews out there. So I have no idea if they are worth getting. Only reviews I remember seeing were from kyu level players and didn't go into depth much about the books. Kind of hard to know if even helped them at all considering they were still kyu at time of the review. But looking at book prices, I know I've spent hundreds of dollars on books over the years. It's kind of an expensive hobby as there is so much knowledge and so many concepts out there on it.

Another idea I'll throw out there that I had for a book.
Have pros play amateurs around 3-5 dan at least KGS in even games. Maybe even a few around 1 dan KGS. But have Pros play amateurs in even games so normal josekis can be played. About 50-100 games. Then have them review the games, publish the more interesting ones. The reason I said probably 50-100 isn't to publish them all, but to see if there are common mistakes amateurs make that they don't know, that pros can correct. I don't expect the games will all be interesting but some of the most interesting ones could be published. That might be a popular book if you get some top pros to do it as sort of a charitable thing.

Hello JoeS1 and welcome to the forum!

While I agree that more book reviews would be welcome, there are many things in your posts I rather disagree with, I hope this post doesn't come off as pretentious or the like.

Well, I don't play too much on KGS but when I do I don't spend my time looking at the discussions in various rooms, so yes I guess questions would largely go unnoticed there. On the other hand, several ddk/sdk players have asked me things in private (teaching games, questions about one of their games, etc) and I always took time to play/comment/answer them.


I can only speak from my experience but, having played hundreds (thousands?) of handicap games as white, it is my opinion that not commenting about too many things is more efficient than commenting about a lot of moves. I now make sure to hammer in one or two ideas/sequences per game. And even then, it takes people a long time to integrate these in their games. Repetition is key here, more than diversity I think.


In my experience people don't come (and stay) to a go club because of the competition but because of the friendly atmosphere. Sure, discussion about the technical aspects of the game (wether high-level or not) is necessary but I would not say it is the primary reason people come.


Not sure that go has changed that much over the last decades. And as far as we, weak amateurs, are concerned I don't think there's anything to be learned about go that cannot be learned from older books.


But this kind of material already exists. How would you rate a book like Attack and Defense? It is one of my favorite books and I don't feel like I'll ever be able to master its contents entirely. I don't think the divide between kyu/dan material is a really valid or useful one. There so many things dan players do not know or master, even things found in books that are supposedly aimed at lower levels.


To me, this is related to the point above. I don't think there are so much concepts to be learned or so many books to be bought. The problem, as I see it, is more about understanding (deceptively) simple concepts in a finer way as one improves. Ideas/concepts like "urgent before big"/"don't play close to thickness" are simple and a 20k can understand the basic idea behind them. But to apply them in your games and understanding what really is "big", "urgent" and "thickness" is a never ending quest and I don't think this can be helped by buying plenty of books. Here also, I think repetition is key, one good book (or chapter of a book) and plenty of games played/commented could be enough.


Why dismiss handicap games?

I am mostly on ogs and people certainly get responses. I cannot vouch for kgs, but I certainly got reviews in the teaching ladder the few times I asked for them, so I expect that it is simply a matter of asking. But honestly, I found lists of books to read on sensei's library, here and on various blogs, so it never occurred to me to ask this question because it is abundantly answered and discussed. In my home city, shodan players improve by going to the lessons of the 5 dan players. (EGF ranks, BTW.) There is also an extensive go library in the club that also sells the most popular books, so you can browse and borrow them first before you decide to buy them.




It isn't go-specific that beginners' books sell and advanced books don't. You make more money with "Solved Exercices for high school algebra" and "Ten easy steps to ace your calculus class" than with "On modular representations of simple Lie algebras".

Just a few ad-hoc comments

Years ago I used to be active on KGS, kibitzing in the top games, answering kyus's questions and reviewing in the KTL, Beginner's room or ASR, but no longer do so due to changing priorities and mean admins.

Agreed, I think a lot of this is due to English clients for Asian servers where you can find more stronger players, and probably some to KGS's technical decay and Java troubles.

Maybe that's a downside of living in such a vast country as the USA. I've made plenty of friends though Go both online and in real-life (plus meeting my wife!). Travelling to European Go Congress, Go camps, Asian Go holidays/tournaments takes time/money/effort but is well worth it.

About recent dan-level books, are you aware of Lee Sedol's commentaries, the 2 Shuko 'Only Move' books, Ma Xiaochun's 36 Stratagems, Relentless, John Fairbairn's Go Seigen series, Takao's new joseki dictionaries, Kim Sung Rae's 21st century opening series, Hinoki press? Some of those commentary books are not so much dan-only theory but I think dans can learn plenty from them but in a less spoon-fed 'here's the theory' way. For dan-level problem books they don't really need to be in English (though there are a few more like Yilun Yang's) and Asian ones like Lee Changho's series or classical collections do the job fine. As for a wish list of dan-level theory books, I'd like things like "The timing of 3-3 invasions". I've done sdk lectures on that topic; I'm sure one could write a fascinating 200-page dan-level book on the subject, but is there a market to make it worthwhile?