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Offline globulon
 Post subject: Who do you like and why?
Post #1 Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2016 9:47 am 
Dies in gote

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Just curious to see what other people here think and how that lines up with my thinking. I'm curious which side you would prefer to have and what your reasoning is.

Black to move. [edit: No komi.]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Who do you like and why?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X X . X O O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O X . . X O O . . O . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . X . , X . X X X , X . . |
$$ | . . O . O X X . O . . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . O O . O . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . O . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O . |
$$ | . . X O . . O . . . O . . X . X O X O |
$$ | . . . . . . O X O O X . O . . X X X . |
$$ | . X . O . . X O O X . . . . O X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . X . . O X O O O . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , X O O O X , O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . O O X X X X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . O X . . . . X X O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Last edited by globulon on Tue Oct 25, 2016 9:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline hyperpape
 Post subject: Re: Who do you like and why?
Post #2 Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2016 10:21 am 
Tengen

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Whose move is it?

Edit: wow, I am blind.

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Offline skydyr
 Post subject: Re: Who do you like and why?
Post #3 Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2016 10:57 am 
Oza

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It's black to move, but what if anything is komi, and are there any prisoners?
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Offline DrStraw
 Post subject: Re: Who do you like and why?
Post #4 Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2016 10:57 am 
Oza

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hyperpape wrote:
Whose move is it?


Based on his comment "Black to move." I would guess it is black's.

EDIT: Forgot to answer the question:

Definitely white. The 4 black stones at K5 are dead and black needs to protect the top left group (G19 kills after it is isolated, which is almost is).

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Still officially AGA 5d but I play so irregularly these days that I am probably only 3d or 4d over the board (but hopefully still 5d in terms of knowledge, theory and the ability to contribute).


Last edited by DrStraw on Tue Oct 25, 2016 12:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Kirby
 Post subject: Re: Who do you like and why?
Post #5 Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2016 11:16 am 
Honinbo

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I like white.

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Offline skydyr
 Post subject: Re: Who do you like and why?
Post #6 Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2016 12:37 pm 
Oza

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In the absence of answers to my questions, I too like white. Black's 4 stones don't have that much aji left that I can see, and white looks caught up without counting anything in the middle, which should favour white somewhat over black when it plays out.

Of course, black getting to C12 first is gigantic, but white has resources.
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Offline DrStraw
 Post subject: Re: Who do you like and why?
Post #7 Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2016 12:53 pm 
Oza

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skydyr wrote:
It's black to move, but what if anything is komi, and are there any prisoners?


Don't know about the komi but white has one more prisoner than black (count the stones).

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Still officially AGA 5d but I play so irregularly these days that I am probably only 3d or 4d over the board (but hopefully still 5d in terms of knowledge, theory and the ability to contribute).
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Offline Fedya
 Post subject: Re: Who do you like and why?
Post #8 Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2016 1:00 pm 
Lives in gote
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Black. He's got more certain territory, and it's not as if White is going to get much in the center, especially after something like C12.
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Offline DrStraw
 Post subject: Re: Who do you like and why?
Post #9 Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2016 1:18 pm 
Oza

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Fedya wrote:
Black. He's got more certain territory, and it's not as if White is going to get much in the center, especially after something like C12.


I think exactly the opposite. White has more certain territory and white is likely to get quite a bit in the middle if he blocks off the top group in sente.

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Still officially AGA 5d but I play so irregularly these days that I am probably only 3d or 4d over the board (but hopefully still 5d in terms of knowledge, theory and the ability to contribute).
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Offline Shaddy
 Post subject: Re: Who do you like and why?
Post #10 Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2016 1:23 pm 
Lives in sente
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I think White is ahead on the board. I'd take White even without komi..
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Offline OtakuViking
 Post subject: Re: Who do you like and why?
Post #11 Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2016 3:18 pm 
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White seems to be ahead. I don't see any super big point for black to spend his sente. So I'll take white.
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Offline globulon
 Post subject: Re: Who do you like and why?
Post #12 Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2016 9:23 pm 
Dies in gote

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Thanks for all the replies.

The answer:

The game is a castle game with Shusaku as white. Black resigned in this position. I posted the question because I feel like counting in a simple manner it looked like black was ahead to me. I counted the lower left as the most certain territory and with sente it seems that a play on the left side expands that corner and limits what white can do. Otherwise I didn't see a lot of place to white to make more territory. Even counting that the 4 black stones are dead (the commentary told me this) I still thought black was ahead on the board.
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Offline Jhyn
 Post subject: Re: Who do you like and why?
Post #13 Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 4:00 am 
Lives with ko

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At a glance I preferred black (with no komi). The lower left and left look bigger than anything white has, the four isolated have aji like H4 to catch a white stone, there is nothing significant in the center. Therefore the threat at the top and the cut on the right doesn't loo that significant.

After actually counting, it seems that white has much more certain territory than I thought. So with Black to move I am undecided, probably White if I really have to choose.

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Offline Majordomo
 Post subject: Re: Who do you like and why?
Post #14 Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 4:55 am 
Lives with ko

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I counted white ahead (with whatever flawed way I count) - but black's move will bring him to par with white, however I don't see a way for him to get more after that so he'll spend the rest of the game preventing white from getting anything (which is futile because white has a lot of potential so will get something I think). I'd play white and lose when my opponent plays endgame and I play 1 point gote moves.

- After reading the answer, cool, I guess that provided both players play the "right" endgame that black can't catch up to the advantage white has? Not the type of game where amateurs resign I don't think, since the scoring has to be rather close?
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Offline Fedya
 Post subject: Re: Who do you like and why?
Post #15 Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 12:46 pm 
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Shows my positional judgment. :oops:
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Offline Kirby
 Post subject: Re: Who do you like and why?
Post #16 Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 12:59 pm 
Honinbo

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Fedya wrote:
Shows my positional judgment. :oops:


FWIW, the marked areas are what I count as points right now.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Who do you like and why?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | ? . X . C C B . ? ? ? ? ? ? . . . . . |
$$ | ? O O X X C X O O ? . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | ? O ? O X C C X O O . . O . O . . . . |
$$ | ? ? ? O X C C X . , X . X X X , X . . |
$$ | ? ? O ? O X X . O . . . C C C X . O . |
$$ | . . O O . O . . . . . . . C C X O ? ? |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . C X O O ? ? |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . ? |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . O ? |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . X X O O O . ? |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O . |
$$ | C C X O . . O . . . O . . X . X O X O |
$$ | C . . . . . O ? O O ? ? O . . X X X . |
$$ | C X . O . . X O O ? ? ? ? . O X O X . |
$$ | C . . . . . X . . ? ? ? O ? O O O . . |
$$ | C C X , X . . . . ? ? O O O X , O O . |
$$ | C C C C . . O . . O O X X X X X O ? . |
$$ | C C C C . X . . . O X C C C C X X O O |
$$ | C C C C . . . . . . . X C C C C . X . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


There are 8 black stones captured by white, plus 37 points = 45 for white. Black has 40 points. White also has more potential in the center.

Seems good for white to me.

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This post by Kirby was liked by 6 people: Bonobo, dfan, gamesorry, globulon, JoeS1, Uberdude
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Offline Ulquiorra
 Post subject: Re: Who do you like and why?
Post #17 Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 6:45 pm 
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I would have gone with black.... seems my counting is still faulty.
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Offline Knotwilg
 Post subject: Re: Who do you like and why?
Post #18 Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2016 1:58 am 
Oza
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I didn't look at the other answers so this one is unaffected.

I like White better because:

- the amount of pure territory seems about the same, if not already favoring White (I count sth like 40-35 in White's favor)
- white has komi (from the looks of it, this is a professional game)
- white has no weak groups; his only issue is the aji at the bottom
- the top left black group is almost in bulky five shape. If White plays the vital point right away, I see a ko. Anyway, any White move completely shutting off the centre will be sente
- there is aji at N12 too, which makes the potential of a White centre even greater

It is hard to see how Black's sente will make up for this
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Offline JoeS1
 Post subject: Re: Who do you like and why?
Post #19 Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2016 1:58 am 
Dies in gote

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I kind of liked black at first. Didn't count though was too lazy. Kind of noticed top black group was vulnerable though. Didn't think of G19 though. Was thinking more F17 which is small and dumb. White has Q18 and C11 to choose from. I kind of like C11. Gives more potential in the center. If black gets Q17 white can drop down to P18 and has two jumps into the corner. White should be able to make 10-15 points in the center. Especially if he can get a move at L10 or around there. Just has to make sure L13 and the area around it doesn't get swallowed up by black in the process.

Any bigger move than C11 or Q17? Am I right that C11 is bigger than Q17?

What happens if white plays K1? Does black have to play another move inside of his territory to live? It kind of looks like white might have a ko to kill, but I can't see a way to kill outright if black ignores W K1.
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