Containing white

ESgibtkeinBier · #1

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Black to play. Can black avoid white's life inside the box? $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , X . . . . , X . . . . X . O . | $$ | . . . O X . . W . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I think that white lives... What's the optimal way to approach this as black (losing the fewest points)?

Some random thoughts:
- My instict tells me to attach at H4 but a response at L3 makes a base and life easy for white - seems like a bad idea...
- Would my best bet be an approach from the side (K3?) to make white run for her life towards the center, where life will be much more difficult because of the left-side influence?

Thank you a lot for you time!!

Uberdude · #2

A question for you: how weak/strong are the black and white groups?

Bill Spight · #3

ESgibtkeinBier wrote:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Black to play. Can black avoid white's life inside the box? $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , X . . . . , X . . . . X . O . | $$ | . . . O X . . W . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I think that white lives... What's the optimal way to approach this as black (losing the fewest points)?

First, Black does not have any points to lose, per se. White has 9+ points in the bottom left corner. What Black does have is a fairly large framework on the bottom side, which White has just invaded. It is too early in the game to think about actual points.

Quote:

Some random thoughts:
- My instict tells me to attach at H4 but a response at L3 makes a base and life easy for white - seems like a bad idea...
- Would my best bet be an approach from the side (K3?) to make white run for her life towards the center, where life will be much more difficult because of the left-side influence?

Thank you a lot for you time!!

What is Black's plan? You indicate an objective to avoid letting White live "inside the box"? I am not exactly sure which box you have in mind, but K-03 pretty well accomplishes that, at least as far as the :wc:

invader is concerned. If you don't know already, you should know that it takes a minimum of 8 stones to form two eyes on the side, and after K-03 Black can easily prevent White from doing that. Assuming that Black has to answer twice, once on each side to keep White from connecting to the corner or escaping to the right, White still would have 5 more plays to make two eyes, and Black has 4 plays to prevent that. :wc:

is not going to live inside.

Another idea, which your title indicates, is to let White live inside the box, but to contain it. This is often a good idea, especially in the opening. Whether it is good in this case is a question of judgement, which you will develop with experience.

Now, if Black plays K-03, White might play to sacrifice the :wc:

stone. That is psychologically improbable, but you never know.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc White runs $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . a . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , X . . . . , X . b . . X . O . | $$ | . . . O X . . 1 . 2 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If White runs with :w3:

, White threatens "a", cutting the Black stones in two. :b4:

combines attack and defense. If White jumps again we get this diagram.

To make a plan, you don't necessarily have to read everything out. Even if the play does not go exactly like this, you can use this diagram to get a general idea of how things might go.

One thing to notice here is that, while Black's attack has bolstered Black on the left, the bottom right side is still not settled. White might play at "b", for example.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Iron pillar $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , X . . . . , X . . . . X . O . | $$ | . . . O X . . W . . 1 . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

A move to consider, then, is :b1:

, the iron pillar. It makes the bottom right side more secure than the diagonal play, while still preventing :wc:

from living inside. This is a more large scale attack than the diagonal play, and large scale attacks are often a good idea. Which you think is better depends upon your judgement.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Contain and kill? $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , X . . . 1 , X . . . . X . O . | $$ | . . . O X . . W . . 3 . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . . . . 5 2 4 . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

the shoulder blow, is another play to think about. It aims more at containing, perhaps killing, :wc:

, but probably makes it easier for White to sacrifice it. :w2:

is one reply, looking both right and left. White is prepared to sacrifice :wc:

.

is a strong play against :w2:

. If now

,

cuts off the :wc:

stone, and White is still not alive on the bottom right.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Sacrifice $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , X . . . 1 , X . . . . B . O . | $$ | . . . O X . . W . 3 2 4 . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . . . . 5 . . . . . . B . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

As you point out, the attachment at L-03 is not bad for White. A White play at 3 looks huge, so Black will very likely play :b3:

.

threatens to connect underneath, which :b5:

prevents. Then White can run out with :w6:

. Now White is attacking the :bc:

stones. (If Black pushes and cuts, White can gladly sacrifice :w2:

and

, as well.) Again, the general idea is important, without worrying too much about each specific play. There are alternatives for :w6:

, for instance, which have the same general idea.

At your level, it is less important to find the right play than to consider good alternatives and come up with a plan. Which plan do you prefer?

ESgibtkeinBier · #4

Uberdude wrote:

A question for you: how weak/strong are the black and white groups?

I think that it's a tad early, things are fluid... Yet, white's group in the bottom left corner seems to live no matter what while the black group starts to feel a bit intimidated. Especially if white cuts at D5 or runs upwards; black rirks becoming sandwich

Bill Spight wrote:

First, Black does not have any points to lose, per se. White has 9+ points in the bottom left corner. What Black does have is a fairly large framework on the bottom side, which White has just invaded. It is too early in the game to think about actual points.

First of all, a big thank you for your answer. I am aware that counting points this early on isn't feasible but I wanted to secure as much of this framework as possible! Anyway, aren't we supposed to, at least try, convert each move to points, even vaguely? What other criteria can you possibly use to determine the effectiveness of a move? Don't get me wrong, the "conceptual elegance" of the game drew me in the first place. Many times though you have to think in numbers rather than finding the "balance" between the lines :lol:

Bill Spight wrote:

What is Black's plan? You indicate an objective to avoid letting White live "inside the box"? I am not exactly sure which box you have in mind, but K-03 pretty well accomplishes that, at least as far as the :wc:

invader is concerned.

Since we are talking objectives, maybe the whole board would help? What move would you guys/gals make?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c The entire picture. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . . X O O . . O O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . . X X O . . O X X . . . . | $$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , X . . . . , X . . . . X . O . | $$ | . . . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

My bad, I should have been more descriptive. Since white invaded, I wondered if there was a way to keep all those highlighted points black by killing white. Maybe too greedy? :mrgreen:

Definitely lacking stones!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c The box. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . . X O O . . O O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . . X X O . . O X X . . . . | $$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , X . . . . , X . . . . X . O . | $$ | . . . O X ? ? O ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? . . . | $$ | . . . O X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? X . . | $$ | . . . . . ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Bill Spight wrote:

If you don't know already, you should know that it takes a minimum of 8 stones to form two eyes on the side, and after K-03 Black can easily prevent White from doing that. Assuming that Black has to answer twice, once on each side to keep White from connecting to the corner or escaping to the right, White still would have 5 more plays to make two eyes, and Black has 4 plays to prevent that. :wc:

is not going to live inside.

At my level go theory doesn't seem to appy but that's another story!! The bottomline, I think, is that white can live!

Bill Spight wrote:

Another idea, which your title indicates, is to let White live inside the box, but to contain it. This is often a good idea, especially in the opening. Whether it is good in this case is a question of judgement, which you will develop with experience.

Speaking of judgment, how would you (very briefly, no need to go to details) describe the situation of the board? White or black seems to have more chances of winning? Having trouble evaluating my opening game - can't help it without experience though

Bill Spight wrote:

Now, if Black plays K-03, White might play to sacrifice the :wc:

stone. That is psychologically improbable, but you never know.

Not only that; sacrifising a stone this early on doesn't, theoritically, give your opponent an edge? Can't really tell how could white pottentially benefit by "giving" black a stone (e.g. J4) in this manner.

Bill Spight wrote:

At your level, it is less important to find the right play than to consider good alternatives and come up with a plan. Which plan do you prefer?

Is there a correct answer to the question?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Possibilities. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . . X O O . . O O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . . X X O . . O X X . . . . | $$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , X . . . c , X . . . . X . O . | $$ | . . . O X . . O . a b . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Since white has more friends on the right, I don't think that nugding him to go over there would be wise... Of the scenarios you mentioned, the one where white was starting to run for his life seemed the most promising to me. Yes, my left side group becomes weaker but I assume that enclosing him and keeping mine alive is possible, which means even more potential for me (and not that many points for white)! The iron pillar (b), seems to have more potential than the approach (a). Less weakness, more influence projecting right. Almost equally threatening to white.
Between the shoulder hit (c) and the pillar, I don't know...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c "The box" outside the box. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . . X O O . . O O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . . X X O . . O X X . . . . | $$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , X . . . c , X . . . . X . O . | $$ | . . . O X . . O . a b . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------------------------- $$ {AR E6 E9} $$ {AR H6 H9}[/go]

Shoulder-hit containment doesn't seem half as bad with all this influence projecting outwards... Aagh! I think I'm even more confused now :lol:

EdLee · #5

Quote:

Anyway, aren't we supposed to, at least try, convert each move to points, even vaguely?

No.

In some cases, a precise value (accurate to fractions of a point) can be calculated; in some other cases, it's not remotely possible.
(AlphaGo decides not by points, but by win rates.)

Quote:

What other criteria can you possibly use to determine the effectiveness of a move?

Good question. You know those hundreds (thousands?) of Go books? Some of them attempt to answer this very question.

Containing white

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