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Offline Gomoto
 Post subject: Are you the first to find the tesuji? #2
Post #1 Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:26 pm 
Gosei

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Black to play. There is only one good move.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X . . X O O O X . W . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X . , . X O X X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X X X O . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X O O X . O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X O . . O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X . X X . . , X . . . O , X . . |
$$ | X O X O . O O X . . . . O . O X . . . |
$$ | X O O . O O X X X . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Additional Info:
The problem is an actual position from the game Wu Guangya 6p - Yang Dingxin 3p B+Resign (Komi 7.5) 2013


Last edited by Gomoto on Mon Mar 19, 2018 10:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Offline Gomoto
 Post subject: Re: Are you the first to find the tesuji? #2
Post #2 Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:27 pm 
Gosei

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Was liked: 310
Solution:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O O X O B . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X . . X O O O X . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X . , . X O X X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X X X O . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X O O X . O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X O . . O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X . X X . . , X . . . O , X . . |
$$ | X O X O . O O X . . . . O . O X . . . |
$$ | X O O . O O X X X . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Last edited by Gomoto on Sun Apr 01, 2018 3:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Tryss
 Post subject: Re: Are you the first to find the tesuji? #2
Post #3 Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 3:22 pm 
Lives in gote

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Rank: KGS 2k
GD Posts: 100
KGS: Tryss
I suppose this is the move :

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O O X O 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X . . X O O O X . W . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X . , . X O X X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X X X O . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X O O X . O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X O . . O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X . X X . . , X . . . O , X . . |
$$ | X O X O . O O X . . . . O . O X . . . |
$$ | X O O . O O X X X . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This post by Tryss was liked by: Gomoto
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Offline Uberdude
 Post subject: Re: Are you the first to find the tesuji? #2
Post #4 Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 5:12 pm 
Judan

Posts: 6727
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Rank: UK 4 dan
KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
2-2 is the textbook tesuji in this joseki follow up and is the reason white shouldn't normally play the atari on the outside. As it's pros I assume there was a good reason in the outside fight. I am usually disappointed when I try to trick my low dan opponents info making that atari.

P.S. Gomoto can you add coordinates please: c after the $$B

This post by Uberdude was liked by: Gomoto
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Offline lightvector
 Post subject: Re: Are you the first to find the tesuji? #2
Post #5 Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 5:59 am 
Lives in sente

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Rank: maybe 2d
I'm probably missing something.

Same as for everyone else, this one jumps out to me as the move to consider...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O O X O 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X . . X O O O X . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X . , . X O X X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X X X O . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X O O X . O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X O . . O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X . X X . . , X . . . O , X . . |
$$ | X O X O . O O X . . . . O . O X . . . |
$$ | X O O . O O X X X . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


...but this seems like a tricky response by white.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O O X O 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X . . X O O O X . O 2 . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X . , . X O X X X X 3 4 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X X X O . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X O O X . O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X O . . O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X . X X . . , X . . . O , X . . |
$$ | X O X O . O O X . . . . O . O X . . . |
$$ | X O O . O O X X X . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I seem to recall the normal next tesuji for black might be here, but I don't see it working because white connects under...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O O X O X 1 |
$$ | . . . . . . O X . . X O O O X . O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X . , . X O X X X X X W |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . . O . 2 |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X X X O . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X O O X . O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X O . . O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X . X X . . , X . . . O , X . . |
$$ | X O X O . O O X . . . . O . O X . . . |
$$ | X O O . O O X X X . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


...like this. And black still has no eyes, but maybe Black can try to push outward and escape somehow now? Black did defend Q17 in sente and white's outside is a bit thinner now.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O O X O X X |
$$ | . . . . . . O X . . X O O O X . O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X . , . X O X X X X X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . . O 3 W |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X X X O . X X O 5 4 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X O O X . O X O 6 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X O . . O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X . X X . . , X . . . O , X . . |
$$ | X O X O . O O X . . . . O . O X . . . |
$$ | X O O . O O X X X . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Going back, if black simply blocks the hane, then we get a ko here. Perhaps this is black's plan instead?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O O X O X 2 |
$$ | . . . . . . O X . . X O O O X . O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X . , . X O X X X X X W |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . . O 4 1 |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X X X O . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X O O X . O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X O . . O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X . X X . . , X . . . O , X . . |
$$ | X O X O . O O X . . . . O . O X . . . |
$$ | X O O . O O X X X . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


And of course, if black simply extends to try to deny white any sort of ko or connection, then white just does this.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O O X O X 3 |
$$ | . . . . . . O X . . X O O O X 4 O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X . , . X O X X X X X W |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . . O 1 . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X X X O . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X O O X . O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X O . . O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X . X X . . , X . . . O , X . . |
$$ | X O X O . O O X . . . . O . O X . . . |
$$ | X O O . O O X X X . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Did I miss something?

This post by lightvector was liked by 2 people: Bill Spight, Gomoto
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Offline Bill Spight
 Post subject: Re: Are you the first to find the tesuji? #2
Post #6 Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:59 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 10905
Liked others: 3651
Was liked: 3374
lightvector wrote:
I'm probably missing something.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O O X O 1 5 |
$$ | . . . . . . O X . . X O O O X . O 2 . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X . , . X O X X X X 3 4 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . . O 7 6 |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X X X O . X X O 9 8 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X O O X . O X O 0 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X O . . O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X . X X . . , X . . . O , X . . |
$$ | X O X O . O O X . . . . O . O X . . . |
$$ | X O O . O O X X X . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


(Renumbered by WLS.)

Did I miss something?


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O O X O X X |
$$ | . . . . . . O X . . X O O O X . O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X . , . X O X X X X X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . . O X O |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X X X O . X X O X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X O O X . O X O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X O . . O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X . X X . . , X . . . O , X . . |
$$ | X O X O . O O X . . . . O . O X . . . |
$$ | X O O . O O X X X . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

This post by Bill Spight was liked by 2 people: Gomoto, lightvector
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Offline lightvector
 Post subject: Re: Are you the first to find the tesuji? #2
Post #7 Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 4:35 pm 
Lives in sente

Posts: 759
Liked others: 114
Was liked: 916
Rank: maybe 2d
Ah. Nice!
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Offline Bill Spight
 Post subject: Re: Are you the first to find the tesuji? #2
Post #8 Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 5:46 pm 
Honinbo

Posts: 10905
Liked others: 3651
Was liked: 3374
Thank you for pointing out :w4:. :) I had missed that.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
Top
 Profile  
 
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