25kyu 9x9 on OGS: One crucial move...

sleepyEDB · #1

Hello,

This was a 9x9 game I played yesterday against a bot on OGS, MasterMantis, that I lost by 6.5 points. Compared to my previous defeats, this was darn near a victory! :razz:

I'd like to have this game reviewed because while I'd love to hear what anyone has to say about the game in its entirety, I think there's a crucial move upon which my defeat hinged; an unfortunate misclick on move 41. I intended to place my stone on F1 but fat-fingered it onto E1 instead. :evil:

Anyway, all thoughts, criticisms, suggestions, etc. are very welcome since all I can do at this point is improve!

sleepy

Shenoute · #2

Hi,

Move 3 is really bad although this is something that will probably take you some time to realize: https://senseis.xmp.net/?SplitShape.

At move 9, black could capture the two stones, thus connecting all his stones and becoming very strong and safe all over the board. Do you see how?

Move 11 doesn't achieve anything because white can capture in a ladder (https://senseis.xmp.net/?Ladder), which he initiates correctly with 12. Move 13 is the same mistake as 11, but 14 is terrible since white does not go on with the ladder he started! Do you see why white 14 is a blunder and what white should have played instead?

Move 19 doesn't do much, the three stone were in no danger of running out. Cutting where white plays at 20 would have isolated the two white stones and ensured a large territory at the top for black since they wouldn't have been able to make two eyes there. When white connects at 20, the exact opposite happens! He connects all his stones and will be able to kill black stone eventually, turning the whole left into his territory.

Move 41 at F1 would change anything, black stones will die anyway. Do you see why?

Overall, pay attention to keep your stones somehow connected. At move 9, black has four stones on the board, all of them can be separated from the others and so are weak. Again: https://senseis.xmp.net/?SplitShape. Your stones should not be all stuck together too close (that would not be efficient to build territory) but they should not be all over the place either or it will be hard to make all them live. There is a balance to find (not that is easy :-)

).

Bill Spight · #3

was not the game losing move. The game was lost long before that. But a better play would have been G-02, to seal off the corner.

Keep playing, reviewing, and thinking!

Good luck!

sleepyEDB · #4

Shenoute wrote:

Hi,

Hello, and thank you for the review!

Shenoute wrote:

Move 3 is really bad although this is something that will probably take you some time to realize: https://senseis.xmp.net/?SplitShape.

I certainly see it now, thanks for the link. My thinking was trying (albeit poorly) to emulate opening moves I've seen in 19x19, i.e. playing somewhere else on the board to establish a presence while maintaining some influence on existing stones, building a base, etc.. Now that I have played a few more 9x9 games I'm not sure trying to use opening moves from 19x19 is even applicable in 9x9; the MO here seems to be preparing for a fight from the opening stone.

Shenoute wrote:

At move 9, black could capture the two stones, thus connecting all his stones and becoming very strong and safe all over the board. Do you see how?

I have to imagine you mean by playing at F5 and trapping the white stones against the edge when white runs at H5? If that's not what you meant, then no, I don't see how...

Shenoute wrote:

Move 11 doesn't achieve anything because white can capture in a ladder (https://senseis.xmp.net/?Ladder), which he initiates correctly with 12. Move 13 is the same mistake as 11, but 14 is terrible since white does not go on with the ladder he started! Do you see why white 14 is a blunder and what white should have played instead?

I'm guessing white should have played at E4 to continue the ladder and eventually capture my stones, yes?

Shenoute wrote:

Move 19 doesn't do much, the three stone were in no danger of running out. Cutting where white plays at 20 would have isolated the two white stones and ensured a large territory at the top for black since they wouldn't have been able to make two eyes there. When white connects at 20, the exact opposite happens! He connects all his stones and will be able to kill black stone eventually, turning the whole left into his territory.

To be honest, I gave into the temptation of capturing some stones when I played stone 19. However, in retrospect I can see how terribly short-sighted it was to not block at D7, as this seems to be the true move upon which my defeat hinged since I gave up the top and left side of the board by allowing white to connect. :cry:

Shenoute wrote:

Move 41 at F1 would change anything, black stones will die anyway. Do you see why?

Yes. The black stone at E2 is already in atari one line from the edge with no supporting stones nearby or any chance of making two eyes, so it's effectively dead already. Attempting to save it will only cost me more stones.

Shenoute wrote:

Overall, pay attention to keep your stones somehow connected. At move 9, black has four stones on the board, all of them can be separated from the others and so are weak. Again: https://senseis.xmp.net/?SplitShape. Your stones should not be all stuck together too close (that would not be efficient to build territory) but they should not be all over the place either or it will be hard to make all them live. There is a balance to find (not that is easy :-)

).

Thanks again for your time and insight. Very eye-opening, to say the least. I'll go through this game again keeping your points in mind, and try to maintain more balance going forward. :bow:

sleepy

sleepyEDB · #5

Bill Spight wrote:

:b41: was not the game losing move. The game was lost long before that. But a better play would have been G-02, to seal off the corner.

Thanks for the insight! I see now that it was most likely move 20 that lost me the game, though I had no idea at the time. :scratch:

Thanks for the tip on G-02, I will study that one more closely.

Bill Spight wrote:

Keep playing, reviewing, and thinking!

Thanks, I most certainly will!

sleepy

Joaz Banbeck · #6

The game was lost at move 3

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ -------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . .| $$ | . . . . . . . . .| $$ | . . , . , . , . .| $$ | . . . . . 3 . . .| $$ | . . , . , . 2 . .| $$ | . . . . . . 1 . .| $$ | . . , . , . , . .| $$ | . . . . . . . . .| $$ | . . . . . . . . .| $$ ------------------[/go]

One of the most basic strategies in go is to connect your stones and disconnect your opponent's stones. All white needs to do is play 4 like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ -------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . .| $$ | . . . . . . . . .| $$ | . . , . , . , . .| $$ | . . . . . 3 . . .| $$ | . . , . , 4 2 . .| $$ | . . . . . . 1 . .| $$ | . . , . , . , . .| $$ | . . . . . . . . .| $$ | . . . . . . . . .| $$ ------------------[/go]

...and the game is effectively over.
( The raw beginner may not see this, but trust me on this: if two pros were asked to play this position, black would use his fifth move to resign. )

For move 3, IMHO, the best move is this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ -------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . .| $$ | . . . . . . . . .| $$ | . . , . , . , . .| $$ | . . . . . . . . .| $$ | . . , . , 3 2 . .| $$ | . . . . . . 1 . .| $$ | . . , . , . , . .| $$ | . . . . . . . . .| $$ | . . . . . . . . .| $$ ------------------[/go]

The only other reasonable plays would be this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ -------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . .| $$ | . . . . . . . . .| $$ | . . , . , . , . .| $$ | . . . . . . . . .| $$ | . . , . , . 2 3 .| $$ | . . . . . . 1 . .| $$ | . . , . , . , . .| $$ | . . . . . . . . .| $$ | . . . . . . . . .| $$ ------------------[/go]

Or this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ -------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . .| $$ | . . . . . . . . .| $$ | . . , . , . , . .| $$ | . . . . . . . . .| $$ | . . , . , . 2 . .| $$ | . . . . . 3 1 . .| $$ | . . , . , . , . .| $$ | . . . . . . . . .| $$ | . . . . . . . . .| $$ ------------------[/go]

Shenoute · #7

sleepyEDB wrote:

Shenoute wrote:

Hi,

Hello, and thank you for the review!

Shenoute wrote:

Move 3 is really bad although this is something that will probably take you some time to realize: https://senseis.xmp.net/?SplitShape.

I certainly see it now, thanks for the link. My thinking was trying (albeit poorly) to emulate opening moves I've seen in 19x19, i.e. playing somewhere else on the board to establish a presence while maintaining some influence on existing stones, building a base, etc.. Now that I have played a few more 9x9 games I'm not sure trying to use opening moves from 19x19 is even applicable in 9x9; the MO here seems to be preparing for a fight from the opening stone.

Ah, yes 19x19 opening is a different beast. But even on 9x9 it can be ok for both players to play the first four moves in the four corners, establishing presence everywhere. In your game if white 2 had been played at C3, you would have been entirely justified in playing away from your first stone (F7 or C7 for instance). But white 2 was a contact move, meaning that it reduced your stone liberties and generally should be answered locally (see Joaz Banbeck's post for possible answers). Your black 3 was kind of local but since the two stones could be separated very efficiently by white it didn't serve any meaningful purpose.

And yes, you found all the moves I as thinking of :-)

dfan · #8

Joaz Banbeck wrote:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ -------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . .| $$ | . . . . . . . . .| $$ | . . , . , . , . .| $$ | . . . . . 3 . . .| $$ | . . , . , 4 2 . .| $$ | . . . . . . 1 . .| $$ | . . , . , . , . .| $$ | . . . . . . . . .| $$ | . . . . . . . . .| $$ ------------------[/go]

If you look for the opportunity to make (or deny) this pattern in your games, your strength will go up noticeably. Usually it's a bit more subtle than this, of course. This sort of shape is just brutal for Black. Both of his stones have a dismal future and White is already really strong in comparison.

sleepyEDB · #9

Joaz Banbeck wrote:

The game was lost at move 3
.
.
.
( The raw beginner may not see this, but trust me on this: if two pros were asked to play this position, black would use his fifth move to resign. )

Ha, ouch.

Joaz Banbeck wrote:

For move 3, IMHO, the best move is this:

The only other reasonable plays would be this:

Or this:

Thank you for the examples! Since this game I have learned of the adage, "If attach, then hane.", so my blunder on move 3 and the preferred alternatives now seem obvious. I appreciate your time and I will continue studying. :study:

sleepy

sleepyEDB · **#10**

Shenoute wrote:

Ah, yes 19x19 opening is a different beast. But even on 9x9 it can be ok for both players to play the first four moves in the four corners, establishing presence everywhere. In your game if white 2 had been played at C3, you would have been entirely justified in playing away from your first stone (F7 or C7 for instance). But white 2 was a contact move, meaning that it reduced your stone liberties and generally should be answered locally (see Joaz Banbeck's post for possible answers). Your black 3 was kind of local but since the two stones could be separated very efficiently by white it didn't serve any meaningful purpose.

Thank you for the follow-up post and detailed response! I'll remember to respond accordingly during the opening sequences so as to avoid being cut apart like this in the future.

Shenoute wrote:

And yes, you found all the moves I as thinking of :-)

Well that just made my day!

sleepy

sleepyEDB · **#11**

dfan wrote:

If you look for the opportunity to make (or deny) this pattern in your games, your strength will go up noticeably. Usually it's a bit more subtle than this, of course. This sort of shape is just brutal for Black. Both of his stones have a dismal future and White is already really strong in comparison.

Thanks for the review! I had delusions of grandeur when placing stone 3, thinking I'd start building my influence toward the top of the board while keeping an eye on my stone at 1, not realizing that not only was this way above my skill level, but that the way I'd gone about it was fundamentally wrong. :roll:

sleepy

25kyu 9x9 on OGS: One crucial move...

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