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Offline Uberdude
 Post subject: Where would you play?
Post #1 Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 3:00 am 
Judan

Posts: 6727
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . O O . O . . . O . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O . . , . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . X X X . O O . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . O . . X X . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | X O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | O O X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X . , X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | O X . X X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X X . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X O X X O X . X . . . . . X . . X . . |
$$ | . O O X X . X X . . . . . . X O X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . , O . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . O O X O O . . . . . . O X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This is a game position with white to play, Komi 6.5, black has 7 captures to white's 3. Last move was
r13
if you want that to influence you. I'm particularly interested in the thoughts of dan players. Feel free to give more than 1 answer, what moves would you consider in this postion?

Context:
This is from a game of Carlo Metta 4d (white) vs Andrey Kulkov 6d. Carlo was convicted of using Leela in another game on dubious evidence. The move Carlo played here was not in Leela's top 3 on the first analysis I did (was #8), but it had a high policy network probability, i.e. from Leela's training on human games it thinks humans would quite likely play here. On a 2nd analysis it was in the top 3, but was dropping lower as Leela analysed more (it's non-deterministic). I'll reveal the move he played once we get some answers here.
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Offline Schachus
 Post subject: Re: Where would you play?
Post #2 Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 4:23 am 
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I'm not at all a dan player, but I will still try my luck:

It seems white got sente, since r13 really doesnt threaten anything. I would be terribly scared of blacks center. It seems that immediate action is neccessary. It is still open from the top and from the bottom.

That leaves 3 main strategic options I would think about:

1. reduce from the top, advantage is that I can maybe build points on the top myself in the process
2. reduce from the bottom, advantage is that it might be hard for black to close off the top with one move and I push through the smaller gap. If black answers it might be a kikashi an I continue from the top. Diadvantage that I dont build points myself
3. Invade deeply and try to live in the center. I can have threats to connect to either side and probably I will win if I live. Disadvantage: To my eyes it seems to late and I would very likely die.
4.Invade deeply on the right. I would be expecting to die though

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . O O . O . . . O . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O . . , . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O . . e . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . X X X . O O . . . a . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . O . . X X . . . g b . . . . . X . . |
$$ | X O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | O O X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X . , X . . . . , d . . . . , f . . |
$$ | O X . X X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X X . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X O X X O X . X . . c . . X . . X . . |
$$ | . O O X X . X X . . . . . . X O X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . , O . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . O O X O O . . . . . . O X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



my candidate moves would be things like a and b for strategie 1(b looks better for reducing and I dont think it can be cut, but its thinner and would therefore probably not build a lot of my own), g would also be a thought . c would be the move for strategy 2, it seems to be too gote to my eyes even though its pushing through the smaller gap, I would be afraid plack plays around e and I would be unhappy. d and f are sample moves for strategie 3 and 4 but I dont think either works since blacks shape is impeccable.

I would probably choose from a and b. It seems to me I have to reduce a lot in order to win, so I might lean towards b, thinking I have to make this work in order to have a chance. If I was feeling good about the game, probably a would be my choice, it does feel a lot safer and more connected. I'm probably gonna chicken out and play a even though I feel it might not be enough...

Lets say my order of liking is maybe a,b,c,g.

Edit: looking at my post, I dislike c even more. Maybe g isnt all that bad(I came up with it later, you can see that from the numbering). So really its between a,b,g for me right now.

This post by Schachus was liked by: Uberdude
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Offline bernds
 Post subject: Re: Where would you play?
Post #3 Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:04 am 
Lives with ko

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Uberdude wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . O O . O . . . O . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O . . , . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . X X X . O O . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . O . . X X . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | X O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | O O X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X . , X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | O X . X X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X X . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X O X X O X . X . . . . . X . . X . . |
$$ | . O O X X . X X . . . . . . X O X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . , O . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . O O X O O . . . . . . O X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

It's not the kind of position I would like to play; I would be worried about Black getting too much in the center. First idea would be to advance from one of White's strong positions, like L6 or K13. But that probably does not have enough impact. Second idea - plonk something in the middle (L10?) and pretend I can run to either the top or the bottom. But do I have enough after W L10 B N10? Can I go as deep as N10 myself?
Of the black positions, the one in the top right seems relatively the weakest, so maybe try to bully it with something like N14, vaguely threatening O16 or the peep at P13. But Black could maybe just respond with N13 and build his center. But with that sort of thing, as well as options for running out and also the Q7 peep maybe I can risk N10? It still doesn't really look appealing. So I'd probably try to count, which I'm bad at, and decide whether I need to do that or whether K13/L13 could be enough. The idea being that after K13, if Black seals things off at the bottom with L6, I'd advance further from the top.

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Offline lightvector
 Post subject: Re: Where would you play?
Post #4 Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:10 am 
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I was thinking of something like this, with the resource of the peep at A to try to get some momentum if black tries to attack it.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . O O . O . . . O . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O . . , . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . X X X . O O . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . O . . X X . . . . . . 1 . a . X . . |
$$ | X O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | O O X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X . , X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | O X . X X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X X . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X O X X O X . X . . . . . X . . X . . |
$$ | . O O X X . X X . . . . . . X O X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . , O . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . O O X O O . . . . . . O X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


But unfortunately, Zen 7 says that black is winning if black simply defends here.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . O O . O . . . O . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O . . , . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . X X X . O O . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . O . . X X . . . . . . 1 . . . X . . |
$$ | X O X O . . . . . . . . . 2 . . X . . |
$$ | O O X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X . , X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | O X . X X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X X . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X O X X O X . X . . . . . X . . X . . |
$$ | . O O X X . X X . . . . . . X O X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . , O . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . O O X O O . . . . . . O X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


In fact, Zen wants to defend even if white goes in one space deeper.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . O O . O . . . O . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O . . , . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . X X X . O O . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . O . . X X . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | X O X O . . . . . . . . 1 . . . X . . |
$$ | O O X X X . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . |
$$ | O X . , X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | O X . X X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X X . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X O X X O X . X . . . . . X . . X . . |
$$ | . O O X X . X X . . . . . . X O X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . , O . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . O O X O O . . . . . . O X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Zen suggests either of these moves. And thinks that black is still ahead, but only a little.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . O O . O . . . O . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O . . , . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . X X X . O O . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . O . . X X . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | X O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | O O X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X . , X . . . . , . . . b . , . . . |
$$ | O X . X X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X X . . O X . . . . . . . a . . . . |
$$ | X O X X O X . X . . . . . X . . X . . |
$$ | . O O X X . X X . . . . . . X O X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . , O . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . O O X O O . . . . . . O X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


More conservative moves that try to expand white's area but don't go nearly as far, Zen really dislikes and says that black's has a big lead.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . O O . O . . . O . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O . . , . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . X X X . O O . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . O . . X X . . . . 1 . . . . . X . . |
$$ | X O X O . . . . . . . 2 . . . . X . . |
$$ | O O X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X . , X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | O X . X X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X X . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X O X X O X . X . . . . . X . . X . . |
$$ | . O O X X . X X . . . . . . X O X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . , O . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . O O X O O . . . . . . O X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Edit: added one more diagram to the end.

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Offline Javaness2
 Post subject: Re: Where would you play?
Post #5 Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:16 am 
Gosei

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l9; without giving things that much thought

_________________
North Lecale

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Offline Uberdude
 Post subject: Re: Where would you play?
Post #6 Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:18 am 
Judan

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reply to bernds:
bernds wrote:
Second idea - plonk something in the middle (L10?) and pretend I can run to either the top or the bottom. But do I have enough after W L10 B N10? Can I go as deep as N10 myself?

So you have a similar idea to Carlo: he played n10. Leela wanted to play n11. These do both make sense as a classic reduction around the middle of the sector line from n16 to o6, though the h9-6 black thickness is rather intimidating. So plausible to me in retrospect, but I didn't really think about this position before seeing his move so I don't have an unbiased view.
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Offline lightvector
 Post subject: Re: Where would you play?
Post #7 Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:30 am 
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Oh, in case anyone is interested, I've been training some neural nets recently, and here's what my biggest neural net says on the position (without move history as an input, although I tried giving it history and it doesn't affect the heatmap that much).

It's a 12 block residual net with about 8 million parameters trained to predict GoGoD pro games. The raw policy (no search, no value) beats Pachi with 100k simulations 90% of the time, and based on comparing to published stats, the net is much deeper and almost certainly much stronger than AlphaGoFan's (SL) policy net. It's probably deeper and stronger than Leela classic's policy net too.

So basically, the net has no strong guess of where pros would play. I bet many of the predicted moves aren't good, the same way Zen didn't like many of the more conservative moves, but it would probably take an actual search + value net, or training in AlphaGoZero style, to be able to realize that, rather than merely a human-trained policy net.

https://imgur.com/a/bQ8PC
Image

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Offline bernds
 Post subject: Re: Where would you play?
Post #8 Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:21 am 
Lives with ko

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Uberdude wrote:
So you have a similar idea to Carlo: he played n10. Leela wanted to play n11. These do both make sense as a classic reduction around the middle of the sector line from n16 to o6, though the h9-6 black thickness is rather intimidating. So plausible to me in retrospect, but I didn't really think about this position before seeing his move so I don't have an unbiased view.

I've just asked Leela Zero, hopefully I've reconstructed the position and a few sensible-ish last moves. It does want to play N10 (yay, I get 100% similarity) and thinks White is winning (ok, maybe Zero and I don't think alike entirely). Second best moves, according to it, are O10, N11, and a few more in that area. L14 shows up as choice J, 7% off of N10 but still winning by a large margin. If you post the sgf I could run it through LZ in its entirety.
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Offline gowan
 Post subject: Re: Where would you play?
Post #9 Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 9:17 am 
Gosei

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Reducing the center is clearly required. I would try to stay away from the Black super strong left side. Taking this into account I'd play on the 10 line maybe around M, N, or O. However, I'd not expect to win. That center is just too big and White's territory is too low.

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Offline Knotwilg
 Post subject: Re: Where would you play?
Post #10 Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 9:25 am 
Oza
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Here we go:

1. Game analysis

White
- Points: 20+ UL, 5+ UR, 10+ LR, 20+ LL. Including the komi-prisoners, that's about 60.
- Growth: potential at the upper and lower side, but not much.
- Weaknesses: Cutting aji at A. White's lone stone at the bottom could be cut off, B being an obvious invasion point
Black
- Points: Left 20+, LR 2+, UR (none)
- Growth: If we imagine both C and D, Black has a potential centre and right side of about 70 points.
- Weaknesses: not really, but E and F do represent bad aji against the UR string and given support, that group may come under attack.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . O O . O a . . O . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O . . , . . X f . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O . . c . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . X X X . O O . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . O . . X X . . . . . . . . e . X . . |
$$ | X O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | O O X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X . , X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | O X . X X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X X . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X O X X O X . X . . d . . X . . X . . |
$$ | . O O X X . X X . . . . . . X O X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . , W . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . O O X O O . b . . . . O X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . O O . O . . . O . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O . . , . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . X X X . O O . . a 1 b . . . X O O . |
$$ | . O . . X X . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | X O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | O O X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X . , X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | O X . X X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X X . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X O X X O X . X . . c . . X . . X . . |
$$ | . O O X X . X X . . . . . . X O X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . , O . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . O O X O O . . . . . . O X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


2. Move

Given all of the above, I would go for W1 here: it takes care of the cutting aji of A in previous diagram, makes extra points, while reducing Black's centre and keeping a keen eye on the peep at E in previous diagram.

A does the same thing but is too timid: if Black simply answers at B, his moyo may become big enough.

A third option is to reduce from the bottom with C but there is too much cutting aji at the bottom to play very actively with this stone.


Edit:

I did not see the ko until Bill mentioned it. Now there's a tough game for White. It also changes things.
Connecting the bottom stone to the left, making territory AND reducing any damage resulting from the ko on the whole lower side, becomes a more attractive move now. And of course, one has to consider the descent at the lower right corner / right side border of territories. It either removes the ko in sente, or serves as a connection point for an invasion.

But, since I considered the centre urgent, I don't see how White could win by playing at the bottom.


Last edited by Knotwilg on Tue Apr 03, 2018 12:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Offline Bill Spight
 Post subject: Re: Where would you play?
Post #11 Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 10:28 am 
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What moves would I consider?

OC, I immediately noticed the one space jumps. You always notice the one space jumps. ;) But the first moves I really considered were Black's moves, specifically Black's moves in the bottom right corner. Can't Black make ko there? Also, the boshi on the top side looks good. I wouldn't want Black to play there. And Black can mess around on the bottom side.

OC, I also notice the peep against the Black group in the top right. You always notice peeps, too. But I doubt it would be answered by filling. ;)

Black's thickness is hard to evaluate, but my feeling is that Black is ahead. OC, I consider playing somewhere in the right center, but where is not clear. I'm usually the one with the thickness who gets invaded. ;) So I have little confidence in being able to live there, or to sacrifice a few stones and escape with the others. Besides, if I do, it is likely that I will leave enough ko threats behind that Black can destroy the bottom right corner, which will also weaken the rest of the White stones in the bottom right. :(

Anyway, the top right into the center looks like a hot part of the board. If I can threaten the top right group a bit and reduce Black with sente, I can go back and secure the bottom right corner. My feeling is that that plan would make a close game.

So I think I would try the ogeima jump to L-14.

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Last edited by Bill Spight on Tue Apr 03, 2018 2:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline jeromie
 Post subject: Re: Where would you play?
Post #12 Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 12:02 pm 
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I'm not a dan player, but

Initially I was concerned by the lower right corner, but it doesn't look like black can take it with a move at R2. That means defending the bottom or reducing the center are the main choices. Defending the bottom would be a move like J4, but I don't think that's the biggest move. Reducing the center is the more complex proposition--exactly how far can white go in this situation, and how far does white need to go? My eye is drawn to the nice shape of K14, but is that enough? White seems to have about 75 points with komi, and black's center is hard to judge for sure but definitely over 100 without a big reduction. I think I might try to go a little farther than my comfortable shape move and play K13.

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Offline drmwc
 Post subject: Re: Where would you play?
Post #13 Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 12:51 pm 
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There is a ko bottom right. It's indirect 2-stage for black, but quite big. So one idea is to remove that aji. However, it's very slow - Black will play a moyo-y move, and the centre could get big.

So I guess a reduction would be traditional. I'm not very good at vague reductions, but L13 seems to be connected. However, it's quite shallow.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Ko aji
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . O O . O . . . O . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O . . , . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . X X X . O O . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . O . . X X . . . . 1 . . . . . X . . |
$$ | X O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | O O X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X . , X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | O X . X X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X X . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X O X X O X . X . . . . . X . . X . . |
$$ | . O O X X . X X . . . . . . X O X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . , O . . . X X O 5 . |
$$ | . . O O X O O . . . . . . O X O O 4 7 |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . O O X 2 3 6 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Big moyo for B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . O O . O . . . O . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O . . , . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . X X X . O O . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . O . . X X . . . . 1 . . . . . X . . |
$$ | X O X O . . . . . . . 2 . . . . X . . |
$$ | O O X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X . , X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | O X . X X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X X . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X O X X O X . X . . . . . X . . X . . |
$$ | . O O X X . X X . . . . . . X O X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . , O . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . O O X O O . . . . . . O X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



SO I guess W needs to dive deep into the moyo. M11 is my guess, bu God knows if it can live or not.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc My guess
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . O O . O . . . O . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O . . , . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . X X X . O O . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . O . . X X . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | X O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | O O X X X . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X . , X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | O X . X X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X X . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X O X X O X . X . . . . . X . . X . . |
$$ | . O O X X . X X . . . . . . X O X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . , O . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . O O X O O . . . . . . O X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Offline Gomoto
 Post subject: Re: Where would you play?
Post #14 Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 2:47 pm 
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I considered moves like H12, N17, J4, L6 and L7 myself. (But I would like to mention it would be not unlikly for a player studying with Leela (Zero) to invade around N10 with a one space jump to the right as follow up. This is a standard Leela (Zero) shinogi tactic for example after playing two early 3-3 invasions.)

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Offline Uberdude
 Post subject: Re: Where would you play?
Post #15 Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 12:33 pm 
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Thanks everyone for the responses, interesting to see how you think. The move Carlo played was n10. A few people suggested moves here or in the vicinity so it doesn't seem particularly suspicious to me.

Black chose to attach to the reduction rather than swallow it whole, so he converted a decent chunk of the right side to territory but also gave white momentum to extricate his stones, I think as white I would breathe a sigh of relief. To me black messed up the yose in not hassling the thinness of white around m6: that area should have been reduced to 0 points in sente but white ended up making 5+ there. Leela was also very critical of k10. Plus the r2 ko never happened. I thought Russian 6ds were generally excellent at yose, but doesn't seem the case here.


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Offline Bill Spight
 Post subject: Re: Where would you play?
Post #16 Posted: Thu May 31, 2018 10:32 pm 
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I just had an interesting experience. I was playing over the game record without giving it much thought. To my surprise, when I got to the position that Uberdude had posed as a problem, the board looked different to me. Perhaps that had to do with my state of relaxation, but I also think that having seen White's move gave me a new perspective. Although I recognize that dealing with the opponent's thickness is a relative weakness of mine, because I am typically the one who makes thickness, I was not daunted by the opponent's thickness; instead, the right side and center looked quite big and inviting. :)

This change in perspective was not the result of remembering exactly where White had played in the actual game (I didn't), nor of studying the subsequent play (I never did). Aside from my present state of relaxation, I think that simply seeing White's play altered my perception of the game, and that it will alter my perception of other positions, as well.

Humans are quite adaptable, and one of our strengths, imitation, is not just a rote copycat ability. I think that modern go AI bots will have a great effect on the next generation of players, by revealing possibilities and widening their horizons. They will see the go board differently than our generation does. 20 years from now I would not be surprised to see a player emerge who is even better than Go Seigen was.

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Offline Kirby
 Post subject: Re: Where would you play?
Post #17 Posted: Thu May 31, 2018 11:36 pm 
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My idea from the OP was to block the ko in the bottom right. I guess black probably wins from the moyo after that, though.

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Offline Ian Butler
 Post subject: Re: Where would you play?
Post #18 Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 8:51 am 
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Bill Spight wrote:
I just had an interesting experience. I was playing over the game record without giving it much thought. To my surprise, when I got to the position that Uberdude had posed as a problem, the board looked different to me. Perhaps that had to do with my state of relaxation, but I also think that having seen White's move gave me a new perspective. Although I recognize that dealing with the opponent's thickness is a relative weakness of mine, because I am typically the one who makes thickness, I was not daunted by the opponent's thickness; instead, the right side and center looked quite big and inviting. :)

This change in perspective was not the result of remembering exactly where White had played in the actual game (I didn't), nor of studying the subsequent play (I never did). Aside from my present state of relaxation, I think that simply seeing White's play altered my perception of the game, and that it will alter my perception of other positions, as well.

Humans are quite adaptable, and one of our strengths, imitation, is not just a rote copycat ability. I think that modern go AI bots will have a great effect on the next generation of players, by revealing possibilities and widening their horizons. They will see the go board differently than our generation does. 20 years from now I would not be surprised to see a player emerge who is even better than Go Seigen was.


Interesting, I have the opposite view concerning moyos. I see them as territory too easily and really have to learn to see the many possibilites how to deal with them :)

For me it's amazing white managed to win that game. Great game record, too.
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Offline Kirby
 Post subject: Re: Where would you play?
Post #19 Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 9:17 am 
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I looked at this position with Lizzie using Leela Zero, and let it ponder for awhile.

I don't have a GPU, so I don't know how meaningful it is, but the top move according to my computer was this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . O O . O . . . O . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O . . , . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . X X X . O O . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . O . . X X . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | X O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | O O X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X . , X . . . . , . . . W . , . . . |
$$ | O X . X X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X X . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X O X X O X . X . . . . . X . . X . . |
$$ | . O O X X . X X . . . . . . X O X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . , O . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . O O X O O . . . . . . O X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


But then I played out the position for a few moves using the top suggestions each time from Leela Zero, and black killed white and the win percentage dropped...

Maybe my computer doesn't have enough processing power?

Seems weird to suggest a move where you'll die as the top move.
Maybe I'm analyzing it wrong :scratch:

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Offline Bill Spight
 Post subject: Re: Where would you play?
Post #20 Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 9:44 am 
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Kirby wrote:
Seems weird to suggest a move where you'll die as the top move.
Maybe I'm analyzing it wrong :scratch:


How does LeelaZero evaluate the position after :wc:?

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