Direction of Play: help wanted! (& received!)

Ian Butler · #1

I want to post a few games below with the same question for all.
Let me give a bit of background: I've been getting stronger the last few months and I'm at about 11-12 kyu right now, hoping to get to the SDK ranks soon-ish.
I used to be strong at direction of play, but playing against stronger players (SDK), my direction of play seems to desert me and the last few games I always get behind in a major way.
Does anyone see a pattern or what I'm doing wrong fundamentally?

I'm not looking for specific moves or specific mistakes, but rather conceptually, where does it do wrong and where do I lose the game?

Much appreciated!

Game 1:
I get like 40 points behind.
At move 117 Leela gives me 20% to win.
At move 155 I have 7% to win. SE has me behind at 45 points.

Game 2:

Game 3:
I posted this game before on the forum but I'll put it here so maybe you can see a pattern?

Schachus · #2

I looked at game 1:

I think at 48, you are already far behind, at least it seems that way to me.

My suggestons:

19:R18. I think it should be sente(yes he can also play at o15, but then you get a very big corner and his "wall" has no eyes yet after you take the 2 stones). If he answers, go back to o15

21: dont answer (maybe extend at r11 to support your group and make points on the side. You are anot protecting much in the corner anymore. Also this way, he got r18 in sente, when it should have been your sente too. Double sente is HUGE. Thats why you should play at R18 before

25: feels soft. I would maybe play D17 to revert to the 3-3 invasion joseki. I must admit though that this still feels like black got tricked, since if he invaded 3-3 you probably would have wanted to block the other side. Maybe hane from the corner at 23?

27: I suggest hane at E17

39: Tenuki seems very wrong. B15 to keep him separated and take all the points on the side away is very natural. I could understand if you were so worried about the cut at D14, that you didnt want to risk it, but then at least protect that cut, that would make sense to me. If you really wanted to tenuki, to it a move earlier at 37(I would reall consider it there, maybe still hane at E17 for 37, his corner group is not that strong yet). At 37, there was no big threat, now connecting is huge, so dont tenuki.

41: weird shape, you are still in damezumari as shown by the next moves. Dont know what to do though, everyting looks bad(re 37/39)

47: allowing that hane at 48 is VERY painful(damezumari again), I would extend(hane seems impossible, it is gonne get cut).

After 48 you have a big "wall" that points nowhere and is not going to give you anything. IMO you got swindled big time in the top left.

Joaz Banbeck · #3

You sometimes don't finish your corners. This costs you a lot.

Corners are, as you probably know, the most valuable parts of the board - particularly early in the game. They are frequently contested.

Often, one player gets the inside, and the other gets the outside. The inside is territory, the outside is influence. I don't see a clear recognition of this in your play.
For example, your opponent gets the outside, and you should immediately recognize that your destiny is to take the inside - or get almost nothing. But you tenuki.

Example 1 from the first game:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . O a . . | $$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Move 6 is a very influence-oriented move. ( It is also rather dubious, only good under the most rare circumstances )
When he plays it, you should remember that if he gets influence, you should get territory or vice versa. And immediate thereafter you should recognize that your direction of play is to take corner territory.
So you should play 'a' without thinking. Move 7 as you played it is a move oriented toward the side. But corners are bigger than sides.

FWIW, he doesn't understand this either. When you fail to get the corner territory, he should try to get it himself by playing 8 like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . O . . . | $$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . X 8 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Example 2 also from the first game:

He has influence with the marked stones, so your reflex should be to take the territory with 'a'. But you played 'b'.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . W X a . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . W O X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X b . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . | $$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Example 3: A few moves later, he makes a mistake, and you still have a chance to get the corner territory - in sente! - but you tenuki.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 c . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X 1 2 . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . O O X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . | $$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

He should have captured at 3 instead of descending, which means that you can get corner territory with 'c', and do it in sente. But you tenuki. Consequently, he plays 'c' and gets some territory AND outside influence - in a corner where you played first. :sad:

Example 4: still from the first game.

With 23, you chose the outside, and your next seven moves are influence oriented. It is not bad play, and is certainly consistent. ( One could quibble, noting that 25 would be stronger at D18 and 27 at E17, but such conservative play may be excusable since he has all the ladder breakers in the lower right corner )
You play eight consistent moves getting influence while he gets territory, and then when a solid outside wall is just within your grasp with D14 at move 39, you tenuki.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$Bc Position at move 37 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . O X O X X . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . O O X . . . | $$ | . b X X . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . W a . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . | $$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The only consistent move here is 'a'. ( Although an attacking player might play 'b'. Even then, it implies a recognition that white's goal is territory, and it aims to disrupt that territory in trade for having one's own influence disrupted. )

With a good sense of the direction of play, it should end up like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . O O 3 . . . . . . . . O X O X X . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . O O X . . . | $$ | . 2 X X . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . W 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . | $$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

In summary: Remember that corners are big, and if you want to win, you must fight for your share. Often the division is influence for one player and territory for the other. If he gets one of those, you must make sure that you get the other.

Tryss · #4

For the first game, :b15:

is the wrong side to connect. If you connect at Q17, you've got a nice corner without real weaknesses.

As Schachus say, :b19:

should be the descend at R18

The tenuki at :b39:

is wrong (for Leela Zero, it's a -40% winrate move), and the later tenuki at :b47:

don't help.

And later, the main problem is that you're too nice with his center wall : for :b73:

cut at O4 !

:b79:

? What does this achieve? isn't there much more important things elsewhere on the board?

Bill Spight · #5

Ian Butler wrote:

I used to be strong at direction of play, but playing against stronger players (SDK), my direction of play seems to desert me and the last few games I always get behind in a major way.
Does anyone see a pattern or what I'm doing wrong fundamentally?

I'm not looking for specific moves or specific mistakes, but rather conceptually, where does it do wrong and where do I lose the game?

First, as you say, you are facing better opponents. It's not so much that your direction of play is worse as that theirs is better. That means you have fewer opportunities to forge ahead early in the game, and that sometimes you have to play well just to keep up.

Second, you often make small plays. In terms of direction of play, you are not developing in any direction with those moves, you are basically treading water. One possible way to detect such plays is that they are single purpose moves. Sometimes you have to make single purpose moves, but they are usually a mistake, especially in the opening.

Third, you don't think enough about making life difficult for your opponents. In one game you let your opponent make large territories on the left side and top side and also put pressure on your nearby group. In another your let your opponent make a large central moyo. In another you ceded the left side to your opponent. This relates to the second point. Had you been making large plays in exchange for these concessions, it may have been all right. But you weren't.

Fourth, and related to the above, you do not fight enough. Since your opponents are relatively strong, fighting may be just a different way to lose.

However, a fighter would not make your small plays, they would not even be on his radar. And a fighter would certainly try to make life difficult for his opponents.

Your direction of play is very good for your level. Now would be a good time to develop your fighting skills. Fight fiercely! :rambo:

Joaz Banbeck · #6

Joaz Banbeck wrote:

You sometimes don't finish your corners. This costs you a lot...

This post will continue on the same theme.

In a previous post, I focused on division of the corner between influence and territory. Sometimes the partitioning is more symmetrical: each side gets some territory and some influence. Again, you must make sure that you get yours.

Example 5: from game 2

It is black's move. There is a big open space on the right side, and one on the left. But there is also an unfinished joseki in the upper right. A move in the one of the circled points does two things: it takes a big open area, and it completes the territory acquired in the upper right corner.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . X ? ? | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X ? ? ? | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ? ? ? | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X ? ? ? | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ? ? | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ? ? | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . C . . | $$ | . . T , . . . . . , . . . . . , C . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

FWIW, an aggressive player might argue that contesting one of the left side corners is more important. A case can be made for C8 or C14. But your play at C10 does neither.

Finish your corners.

Ian Butler · #7

@Schachus
Interesting analysis. You're probably right. I thought the cut was not really a problem but while the cut itself didn't work, he got a lot of free moves from it and it didn't give me anything.

@Joaz (1)
I'll try to remember that. Lately I'm just so worried about influence that I prioritize it over terrotiry so when I'm on the corner, I think it's too small/Early to take territory and leave it there. But you're right, he got his influence so I should take the territory. Otherwise I might end up with nothing.
Your diagrams are really helpful. It's amazing how those 2 stones make all the difference to that influence.

The 2nd example is a perfect example for what I'm going through right now. I think it's a logical phase in developing in Go. My way of thinking was: that one stone isn't worth much, I need to think globally. I think learning to appreciate influence is probably a wave-pattern. You don't value it enough -- you overvalue it and stop taking territory. I'm probably at this side of the spectrum and I need to dial back again. Thanks!

@Tryss
79 was good shape, but it shows little whole-board thinking, you're right at that.

@Bill
Once again, a very informative analysis.
I'll try to watch those small moves more. Sometimes it's hard to know just when a small move is a necessary one for safety and when it's just small.

As to making life difficult for the opponent, that's really something I've had for longer and it's not that I don't want to make life easier for my opponent, it's more that I seem to lack the technical expertise / the right ideas to do so. Mostly I find myself pushing my opponent, but that makes him stronger. I think I lack the basics of invading and reducing still, so that might be something worth catching up on. And that is probably because my opening was rather good at 15 kyu and above, I almost never had to reduce, but defend a lead.

As for the fighting spirit, you are probably right. Maybe I should do some kind of deliberate practise on fighting. Although fighting just to fight doesn't seem very interesting.
But there are probably lots of opportunities that I now just turn down.

Thanks again for your words. One day I might just develop a good fighting spirit on the board

@Joaz (2)
That is a very interesting example you give because that was my first instinctive move. However I was afraid it'd be too slow and too many stones on one side, so I decided to go disrupt white instead.
Go is a tough game, man. Sometimes one move is the right move, in slightly different games it's a slack or bad move :lol:

Thanks everyone for your ideas.

Bill Spight · #8

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm13 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . 2 . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 a . . | $$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

My inclination is to play :b13:

, presumably with sente, and then :b15:

or "a" or "b".

Joaz Banbeck · #9

Bill Spight wrote:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm13 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . 2 . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 a . . | $$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

...

Note that your opponent is to some extent doing the same thing: he is not finishing his corners. At least he tried with K16, but it is an overplay and leaves him vulnerable to Bill's kakari.

The most tried and true play for white here is L17 ( 70% according to dailyjoseki.com ). Next most likely is M16 ( 25% according to DJ )

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm13 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . W . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Had he played there, he could tenuki with 14.

Joaz Banbeck · **#10**

FWIW, I think this is probably best play. ( I don't have Leela or any other bots on my computer )

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm12 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Bill Spight · **#11**

Here is a commentary on game 1, with an emphasis on making life difficult for White. No guarantee that any suggested play is best.

Tryss · **#12**

Joaz Banbeck wrote:

FWIW, I think this is probably best play. ( I don't have Leela or any other bots on my computer )

It's kinda funny, LZ don't even consider your 13 :

Direction of Play: help wanted! (& received!)

Who is online