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 Post subject: Combinatoric ladder
Post #1 Posted: Sun Jul 28, 2019 7:26 am 
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Can the marked stones be captured by black via ladder?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | X . O O O O X . O O O O X . O O O O O |
$$ | W X X X X O O X X X X O O X X X X X O |
$$ | W X . . X X O X . . X X O X . . . X O |
$$ | W . . . . X O X . . . X O X . . . X O |
$$ | . . . . . . O X . . . . O X . . . X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O |
$$ | . X . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Not a particularly hard problem for humans. But this sort of construction might give ladder solving algorithms some problems, due to combinatoric explosion. :)

There are probably much more efficient constructions than this operating on the same kind of principle that could pack things in tighter and produce a much bigger blowup.

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 Post subject: Re: Combinatoric ladder
Post #2 Posted: Sun Jul 28, 2019 2:55 pm 
Gosei

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Tha late Japanese pro Nakayama Noriyuki 7p was famous for composing ladder problems like the one above. Here's one copied from Sensei's Library:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Can black capture the seven stones at the bottom by playing ''a''? (177 moves)
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O |
$$ | . . . O O X O . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | O . . . O X O O O O . O . . . . . O . |
$$ | O X X X X X X X X X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X O O O . X . . . . X . . . . . . . O |
$$ | X . O O O X . . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | X O O O O X . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X X X X X X X X X O . . . . , . . O |
$$ | O O . . . X O . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O . . . . X . . . X . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . X . . . X . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . X X X X X X X O . . . O . |
$$ | . O . . . a O O O O O O O . O . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: Combinatoric ladder
Post #3 Posted: Sun Jul 28, 2019 5:05 pm 
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gowan - the ladder puzzle you posted is quite likely more complex and interesting for a human to solve. But actually, it is much *easier* for a simple computer algorithm than the position I posted. ;-)

Most ladders are super-easy to brute force, even the whole board ones you usually need only to example a few hundred to a few thousand positions - the attacker has to keep playing atari, the defender just keeps running (or capturing, if if possible) and the attacker assumes they lose any variation where they can no longer give atari, and you just try all the possibilities.

The interesting thing in the ladder position I posted is not merely that it's a whole board ladder problem - there are plenty of those out there. What's interesting is that the defender (white) actually gets six mostly-independent branches where in every branch separately they can choose how far to run before proceeding to the next branch, and every possible combination of distances to run between all six branches has to be proven not to work. So for this ladder, the naive brute force algorithm needs to explore something like (roughly some number between 10 and 20)^6 different variations, because of all the possible combination. This gives millions of positions that need to be examined, rather than just thousands.

Still solvable though - computers are fast. If you continued it around the board you could probably fit another 5 or 6 branches, which would make it a bit harder (although each branch usually wouldn't go as far), but probably still solvable. If there was a more compact way to achieve this kind of branching-like behavior though, such that you could pack in more densely than that, you'd probably make it completely intractable for any pure brute-force solver.


This post by lightvector was liked by: ez4u
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 Post subject: Re: Combinatoric ladder
Post #4 Posted: Mon Jul 29, 2019 9:52 am 
Gosei
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put this position in zen7, the result is unexpected! zen7 (10s) - zen7 (10s):


Attachments:
zen7-zen7.sgf [1.39 KiB]
Downloaded 441 times
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