You guys need to get out more.

The reason I do not like the term "Oriental" is because it is too general and has no consistent definition. It is MUCH broader than the terms "American", or even "European", I think.

_________________
"Those who calculate greatly will win; those who calculate only a little will lose, but what of those who don't make any calculations at all!? This is why everything must be calculated, in order to foresee victory and defeat."-The Art of War

I think it encompasses a broader land area than either of the other two. But that's because the counterpart to "Oriental" is "Occidental," not "American" or "European." I'm pretty sure the occident would be everything to the west of Turkey (until you reach the Pacific, at least,) while the orient is Turkey and everything to the east.

I've heard that some people find the term offensive, but I never had a clear understanding why. Upon reflection, probably it reminds older people (or those with a strong sense of cultural history) from the Hong Kong area or some parts of Japan of the British Empire and its colonies. I wonder if Indians (as in from India) also find the term offensive. One could certainly imagine so, especially thinking about things like Kipling's poem "The Burden of the White Man." ...or for that matter, almost everything Kipling wrote.

I actually kind of like the notation that the white stones are female in the absence of a specific player who is male.

I can't miss an opportunity to contribute to this PC debate.

Of course I hate PC, but I don't like racism either.

To me "oriental" is not in the least pejorative. I might say that "I like oriental girls" where there is a hint of mystery or exoticism implied and it certainly beats reeling off a long list of countries.

Perhaps also there are "oriental" ways like bowing which may seem quaint to the westerner but which are indicative of greater respect shown to others.

On the other hand when an Irish colleague (a good friend) made derogatory remarks about our Indian and Bangladeshi staff, I told him that "a paddy and a paki - it's all the same to me"

And that, gentlemen, is one of the associations that makes the term demeaning--the suggestion that the orientals are nice little mysteries to be studied.

_________________
Occupy Babel!

I disagree. This is your imagination. I could substitute "French" but that would not make the adjective "French" demeaning. It is not even a demeaning usage.

Look, the whole "mysterious orientals" thing is a centuries old trope, that was constantly a part of the colonialist mindset. Calling asian women mysterious and exotic is similarly a trope that's been around for awhile.

Now, maybe you just magically happened to stumble upon the same images that have been around for hundreds of years and there's no connection whatsoever, but it's not my imagination that there's this history.

And it wouldn't make sense to apply those comments to the French. No one would say it, and no one would understand it if you said it. Whereas anyone reading those comments about mysterious asian women will find them very familiar. Each society is subject to its own set of stereotypes. If you want to insult southerners, you call them inbred rednecks, if you want to insult the french, you talk about military history and baths.

How offensive these stereotypes are depends on lots of factors--relative prominence in society, power relations, etc. That's part of the reason oriental is not considered so offensive in the US--east asians have a relatively high status (rule: pick on someone your own size). Similarly, most of the time, french stereotypes are (at worst) in bad taste, but they were quite a bit nastier in 2003 and 2004.

_________________
Occupy Babel!

I think that we should celebrate the differences between people - and orientals are mysterious to a westerner. It is no stereotype, they have a different culture, language, history ... so they have an outlook we should seek out - they have something to say to us.



You're mistaken. The French are mysterious to the English. There are all sorts of differences - from the way they greet each other, the meanings of various gestures, down to the interpretation to be placed on the positions of cutlery on a plate !

Norman Schwarzkopf's "Going to war without France is like going deer hunting without your accordion" may poke fun at the French but it shows an appreciation of their culture and, I think, a fondness.

It is the image that you associate with a word that may cause it to become pejorative. More likely that you associate it with "inscrutability" - but that is not the way I think.

This is yet another topic; not about political correctness but about human and basic rights to freedom of religion. Too OT for this forum though.

It would be nice to agree with you, Bantari, but unfortunately I cannot. Of course, it is more important to challenge the ideas than the language, and of course, the real problem is with the ideas, not with the language. But language shapes thought, and the words we use are important. Words reinforce prejudices.

Right now, I have RSI and am not meant to be typing much. And I have a BGA Council meeting on Saturday which I have work to do for, involving typing. Oops. As a result, I'm not going to write much more in this post; I will come back to this debate later, if people are interested, to explain why words matter, and how challenging language is a useful route into challenging ideas.

(Come to think of it, I'm going to come back to it even if people aren't interested; I am sick and tired of the constant use of the meaningless phrase "political correctness" being used as an excuse to be inconsiderate, because the use of consideration is dismissed as "being PC".)

_________________
My European rating.

Almost all of these are urban legends used to denigrate considerate behaviour. They are not real. Go ahead and find examples of people being banned from talking about "black coffee" - not "my friend's uncle's sister's dog's babysitter", but actual real cases ...

So you refuse to describe a hypothetical Go player as "she"? You insist on using "he"? Because no hypothetical Go player is actually female, presumably ...? It doesn't matter what you call them; they're imaginary. Why not have one of each gender, to make us look nice and inclusive?

_________________
My European rating.

Keep doing a good job of recruiting women Go players ! It seems that there are at least 3 in the Durham Go club.

A lot of PC dogma is actually INconsiderate behaviour because it penalises the majority for the sake of an often invented minority.



There's a practical aspect to this. If new go players are brought up to think of Black as female and White as male (or arsey-versy), things will become very confusing and/or irritating when they come to read the commentaries and non-beginner books which form the vast majority of go texts. Probably something like 99% of existing commentaries describe games between male players where "he" is the only sensible pronoun. That proportion is not likely to change much in the near future. It is sometimes possible to limit the he's by using Black/White, but in a long text typical of a commentary or book there is only so much you can do in that regard.

Raising the profile of women in the game is worth a little bit of positive discrimination, in my view. In my own modest way I think I can claim to have done a little of that, being the first to write anything substantial in English about "women in go" - a 16-page article in Go World 64. On a much large scale, professional organsisations and sponsors have offered women fast-track promotion systems, their own events, and seeded places in tournament (the current Samsung Cup now has a separate preliminary to ensure some women play in the finals). I approve of these things. But messing around with he and she is not the way to help women. That's no more effective than putting a sticking plaster on a broken leg, which gives the person putting on the plaster a sanctimonious glow - and maybe this is the real inspiration for PC - but doesn't really help the patient.

I don't get why it's such a big deal. I don't intuitively get why "Oriental" is offensive (I mean, I understand the reasons presented but they don't add up to me), but it's not really any effort to use another word (although, in this case "Asian" seems less accurate, but whatever). Using he & she for black & white by default would actually make discussing games/positions more clear if everyone did it, so I really don't get why people have a problem with that. Stuff like "flight attendant" instead of "stewardess" is just plain more accurate in modern society, so I don't get why that irritates people, either.

Anyway, given our gender and minority ratios, as go players anything (within reason) we can do to make sub-groups feel less out of place is a good thing as far as I'm concerned. Go congress was significantly whiter and more masculine than Chicago is, for example. There's nothing inherent in the game that should cause that, so it must be the players that are to blame.

_________________
That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.
--
My (sadly neglected, but not forgotten) project: http://dailyjoseki.com

People feel that the topic is important, but they do not have anything reasonable to say for it. Thus people fill this thread with non-sense OT discussion, because they cannot let this thread to be and wait for further information. It is just some sort of unconscious reaction for the topic, because people have not proper mental tools for handling such completely new concepts like eurogopro.

Yes, language shapes thought. If we lack words for something, we cannot think it either. That is the primary idea behind newspeak.

I have difficulty imagining the term "oriental" to be offensive in any way.

I find it quite natural to use "he" as a default gender-inspecific personal pronoun. It is usually unnecessary complex to have two different, non-interchangable but equal-meaning gender-inspecific pronouns, although it can sometimes help to disambiguate. One such case could be for Black and White in a Go game, but only when the players are abstract. If I only need one, though, I use the default.

_________________
A good system naturally covers all corner cases without further effort.

Hey John... I know this is off-topic, but I was curious about this. I hadn't really heard much about this sort of fast-track system. Could you please describe it or point me somewhere that does?

_________________
Someday I want to be strong enough to earn KGS[-].

Its interesting to see how this whole 'Oriental' debate is dominated by 'White' people. I haven't seen any any 'Orientals' actively taking part. I might be wrong though.

To be honest as a Chinese living in UK I don't find the word offensive. I also find this debate to be highly amusing.

Yeah, if I think about it I will ask people at go club tonight. I'm curious.

_________________
That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.
--
My (sadly neglected, but not forgotten) project: http://dailyjoseki.com

Some people, including women, don't want to raise the profile of women in the game. For those of us that do, I believe that deliberately using 'he' and 'she' for separate colours is a banal, tokenist, and vaguely irritating attempt to do so. Besides, in reviews I normally say Black can be satisfied with their thickness rather than He can be satisfied with his thickness

Is Chess more attractive to women because the Queen is the most powerful piece?