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 Post subject: Re: Ekisei Tsubiho 1
Post #21 Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2020 9:57 pm 
Judan

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Two moves have been suggested.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . X . X . X . . |
$$ , . X . . . , . X . |
$$ . . X O O O O O O X |
$$ . . X O 1 X . O X . |
$$ . . X O X . X X . X |
$$ ---------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . X . X . X . . |
$$ , . X . . . , . X . |
$$ . . X O O O O O O X |
$$ . . X O . X 1 O X . |
$$ . . X O X . X X . X |
$$ ---------------------[/go]


Studying the first:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . X . X . X . . |
$$ , . X . . . , . X . |
$$ . . X O O O O O O X |
$$ . . X O 1 X 2 O X . |
$$ . . X O X 3 X X . X |
$$ ---------------------[/go]


Studying the second:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . X . X . X . . |
$$ , . X . . . , . X . |
$$ . . X O O O O O O X |
$$ . . X O 2 X 1 O X . |
$$ . . X O X 3 X X . X |
$$ ---------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . X . X . X . . |
$$ , . X . . . , . X 8 |
$$ . . X O O O O O O X |
$$ . . X O 4 . O O X . |
$$ . . X O . O 7 6 5 X |
$$ ---------------------[/go]


The first move results in a ko (if Black's reply turns out to be optimal), the second move results in death. Therefore, only the first move deserves further reading (starting with Black 2 at 3) to find out whether a better ko or status can be achieved.


This post by RobertJasiek was liked by: Elom
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 Post subject: Re: Ekisei Tsubiho 1
Post #22 Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2020 10:19 pm 
Lives in sente

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Continuing from before . . .
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . X . X . X . . |
$$ , . X . . . , . X . |
$$ . . X O O O O O O X |
$$ . . X O . X 7 O X 1 |
$$ . . X O X 5 6 4 3 2 |
$$ ---------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . X . X . X . . |
$$ , . X . . . , . X . |
$$ . . X O O O O O O X |
$$ . . X O 9 X O O X . |
$$ . . X O X 0 X X 8 X |
$$ ---------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . X . X . X . . |
$$ , . X . . . , . X . |
$$ . . X O O O O O O X |
$$ . . X O O . O O X . |
$$ . . X O . . . . 1 X |
$$ ---------------------[/go]


Hmmm, am I missing something . . .

_________________
On Go proverbs:
"A fine Gotation is a diamond in the hand of a dan of wit and a pebble in the hand of a kyu" —Joseph Raux misquoted.

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 Post subject: Re: Ekisei Tsubiho 1
Post #23 Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2020 10:27 pm 
Lives in sente

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Location: UK
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Rank: OGS 9kyu
Universal go server handle: WindnWater, Elom
RobertJasiek wrote:
Two moves have been suggested.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . X . X . X . . |
$$ , . X . . . , . X . |
$$ . . X O O O O O O X |
$$ . . X O 1 X . O X . |
$$ . . X O X . X X . X |
$$ ---------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . X . X . X . . |
$$ , . X . . . , . X . |
$$ . . X O O O O O O X |
$$ . . X O . X 1 O X . |
$$ . . X O X . X X . X |
$$ ---------------------[/go]


Studying the first:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . X . X . X . . |
$$ , . X . . . , . X . |
$$ . . X O O O O O O X |
$$ . . X O 1 X 2 O X . |
$$ . . X O X 3 X X . X |
$$ ---------------------[/go]


Studying the second:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . X . X . X . . |
$$ , . X . . . , . X . |
$$ . . X O O O O O O X |
$$ . . X O 2 X 1 O X . |
$$ . . X O X 3 X X . X |
$$ ---------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . X . X . X . . |
$$ , . X . . . , . X 8 |
$$ . . X O O O O O O X |
$$ . . X O 4 . O O X . |
$$ . . X O . O 7 6 5 X |
$$ ---------------------[/go]


The first move results in a ko (if Black's reply turns out to be optimal), the second move results in death. Therefore, only the first move deserves further reading (starting with Black 2 at 3) to find out whether a better ko or status can be achieved.


Aah . . .

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . X . X . X . . |
$$ , . X . . . , . X . |
$$ . . X O O O O O O X |
$$ . . X O . X 7 O X 1 |
$$ . . X O X 5 6 4 3 2 |
$$ ---------------------[/go]


However:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . X . X . X . . |
$$ , . X . . . , . X . |
$$ . . X O O O O O O X |
$$ . . X O 8 X 7 O X 1 |
$$ . . X O X 5 6 4 3 2 |
$$ ---------------------[/go]


So white needs to play at that point directly . . .

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . X . X . X . . |
$$ , . X . . . , . X . |
$$ . . X O O O O O O X |
$$ . . X O 7 X . O X 1 |
$$ . . X O X 5 6 4 3 2 |
$$ ---------------------[/go]

_________________
On Go proverbs:
"A fine Gotation is a diamond in the hand of a dan of wit and a pebble in the hand of a kyu" —Joseph Raux misquoted.


This post by Elom was liked by: Bill Spight
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 Post subject: Re: Ekisei Tsubiho 1
Post #24 Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2020 11:57 pm 
Lives in sente

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SoDesuNe wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O O O O . . .
$$ | . . X X . O . .
$$ | X . . , X O . .
$$ | . . . X . O . .
$$ | . X . O O . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ +-----------------[/go]


Thoughts and attempt:
I also have difficulties with those "open border"/undefined eye-shape problems. I try to cope with this in two ways: First is starting not with vital points but with eye-space-reducing-moves and submissive replys (if they work I don't need to read complicated stuff). This is simple and can be calculated quite quickly. Second is following the proverb that your opponent's key point is your own.

Disclaimer: I did need a board and stones again, to figure out all the intricacies. Though I have to say, I got to the first four moves on my own and saw a good chunk of the variations.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Reducing Black's eye-space
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O O O O . . .
$$ | . . X X . O . .
$$ | X . . , X O . .
$$ | . . . X . O . .
$$ | . X 1 O O . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ +-----------------[/go]



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Variation 1: Tearing through
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O O O O . . .
$$ | . . X X . O . .
$$ | X . . , X O . .
$$ | . . 3 X . O . .
$$ | . X 1 O O . . .
$$ | . 2 . . . . . .
$$ +-----------------[/go]



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Variation 2: Helping Black build a nice nest
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O O O O . . .
$$ | . 5 X X . O . .
$$ | X 6 . , X O . .
$$ | . . 2 X . O . .
$$ | 4 X 1 O O . . .
$$ | . 3 . . . . . .
$$ +-----------------[/go]


Now you can start going backward. Try :w5: at :b6: for example. It still lives (insert effortful practice ; )), so you have to go back even further.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Variation 3: where are Black's eyes?
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O O O O . . .
$$ | . . X X . O . .
$$ | X . d a X O . .
$$ | b c 2 X . O . .
$$ | . X 1 O O . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ +-----------------[/go]


It's time to go deeper now. Recognise the eye-shape, see familair patterns. After the exchange :w1: for :b2:, it is "easy" to see that 'a' is already an eye. The second eye will most likely be around 'b'. Do you have any moves to take away the second eye?

I reckon you will end up in situations where 'c' and 'd' become miai and so Black lives.

With all that out of the way: What did we learn?

1) We have an idea, where Black's eyes will be.
2) When Black responds at :b2: he's already alive.

So :b2: seems to be a key point in Black's shape. According to proverb this key point could also work in White's favour!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Variation 4: Cutting the eye!
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O O O O . . .
$$ | . . X X . O . .
$$ | X . . . X O . .
$$ | . . 1 X . O . .
$$ | . X . O O . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ +-----------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Variation 4: tearing through the 2nd
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O O O O . . .
$$ | . . X X . O . .
$$ | X . . . X O . .
$$ | . 2 1 X . O . .
$$ | . X 3 O O . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ +-----------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Variation 5: Entering the belly of the beast
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O O O O . . .
$$ | . . X X b O . .
$$ | X . . . X O . .
$$ | . . 1 X a O . .
$$ | . X 2 O O . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ +-----------------[/go]


This gets more complex but can also be made a little bit rational. White should not be so fast and play atari at 'a'. Black will sacrifice this stone and live - please confirm : )

Furthermore when Black cannot capture White with his next move, the atari can be played later as well. If Black plays 'a', White can force 'b' with the same result.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Variation 5
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O O O O . . .
$$ | . . X X . O . .
$$ | X . . . X O . .
$$ | . 3 1 X . O . .
$$ | . X 2 O O . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ +-----------------[/go]


So, when you have confirmed that :w3: is Black's key point to live when White decides to atari right away, why not play there yourself?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm4 Variation 5: No ko!
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O O O O . . .
$$ | . . X X 4 O . .
$$ | X . 3 . X O . .
$$ | . O O X 2 O . .
$$ | 1 X X O O . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ +-----------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm4 Variation 6: Black collapses due to liberty shortage
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O O O O . . .
$$ | . . X X . O . .
$$ | X 8 . 3 X O . .
$$ | 6 O O X 2 O . .
$$ | 1 X X O O . . .
$$ | . 5 4 7 . . . .
$$ +-----------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm4 Variation 7: Ko
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O O O O . . .
$$ | . . X X . O . .
$$ | X . 3 4 X O . .
$$ | 1 O O X 2 O . .
$$ | . X X O O . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ +-----------------[/go]



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm4 Variation 8: If Black refuses the ko...
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O O O O . . .
$$ | . . X X . O . .
$$ | X 8 . 3 X O . .
$$ | 1 O O X 2 O . .
$$ | 6 X X O O . . .
$$ | . 5 4 7 . . . .
$$ +-----------------[/go]


But did you remember the proverb? Your opponent's key-point is your own?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm4 Variation 9: Guzumi!
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O O O O . . .
$$ | . . X X . O . .
$$ | X . . . X O . .
$$ | . O O X . O . .
$$ | . X X O O . . .
$$ | . . 1 . . . . .
$$ +-----------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm4 Variation 9: Or not...
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O O O O . . .
$$ | . . X X . O . .
$$ | X 4 . . X O . .
$$ | 3 O O X . O . .
$$ | 2 X X O O . . .
$$ | . . 1 . . . . .
$$ +-----------------[/go]


So, I guess it's ko?

To be fair, this ko is better for Black:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm4 Variation 10: Ko²
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O O O O . . .
$$ | . . X X . O . .
$$ | X . 1 3 X O . .
$$ | . O O X 2 O . .
$$ | 6 X X O O . . .
$$ | 7 4 5 . . . . .
$$ +-----------------[/go]


(I'm really tired now, so the possibilitiy is high that I missed something ^^)


TL;DR
Start with reducing the eye-space. Play the move, which refuted your last play.


Thank you for your notes!

I recently finished a game in which I thought I'd lost a few points the endgame. Having already estimated being behind by just under komi, it seemed that there wasn't anywhere to catch up, however, an ai analysis believed that black had only about .64 of a victory, and that before the slip I was actually a little ahead. Perhaps it was the amount of unclear endgame positions that seemed a bit above me to play correctly that influenced over-pessimism--that and that it looked too good to mess up with my bad moves!

So I came up with a strategy for satisfyingly finishing endgames that look too good to misplay, which also happens to seem to help here where the stones are spread out in a way that makes it hard to have a solving strategy . . .

[Hide]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc vital points with no expectation
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O O O O . . .
$$ | . . X X . O . .
$$ | X b a , X O . .
$$ | . . . X . O . .
$$ | . X . O O . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ +-----------------[/go]


As most, I started by looking for vital points, but with no expectation--the goal was to first acquire a feel for the position by painting with intuition, starting of with it seeming that an attempt at a could be halted immediately at b.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc vital points with no expectation 2
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O O O O . . .
$$ | . . X X . O . .
$$ | X . 4 5 X O . .
$$ | . 3 1 X 5 O . .
$$ | . X 2 O O . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ +-----------------[/go]


Black seems to have an advantage here . . . But I may have missed something!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc an idea
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O O O O . . .
$$ | . . X X . O . .
$$ | X . . , X O . .
$$ | . 1 . X . O . .
$$ | . X . O O . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ +-----------------[/go]


This was the point that gave me the idea for the next move. It doesn't appear to work--black respond at B4 poor C3, as both seem to give C2 and then C1 to squeeze away black's second eye. But if black responds at C1 it seems like it stays alive . . . However!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Cool clamp
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O O O O . . .
$$ | 8 6 X X . O . .
$$ | X 5 . , X O . .
$$ | 7 . 2 X . O . .
$$ | 3 X 1 O O . . .
$$ | . 4 . . . . . .
$$ +-----------------[/go]


It often feels satisfying to play a clamp, as if one was saying to the opponent you think I have to hane, well see this. Similar to playing one's own way in the fuseki. I don't see a response yet for black that works . . .

edit: checked the answer, and yes this is the start of the given variation.

_________________
On Go proverbs:
"A fine Gotation is a diamond in the hand of a dan of wit and a pebble in the hand of a kyu" —Joseph Raux misquoted.

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