This 'n' that

Bill Spight · **#1041**

Gérard TAILLE wrote:

White to play

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W White to play $$ -------------- $$ | . O . b X . . . . . . . $$ | a X O O X . . . . . . . $$ | X . O X X . . . . . . . $$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . $$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . $$ | X X . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

My goal is to try to draw the thermograph of the position above but it is not easy !

OC I will first try to draw the thermograph of the position:

White to play

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W White to play $$ -------------- $$ | . O . . X . . . . . . . $$ | O X O O X . . . . . . . $$ | X . O X X . . . . . . . $$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . $$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . $$ | X X . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

more later

Sagari

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Sagari $$ -------------- $$ | . O . O X . . . . . . . $$ | . X O O X . . . . . . . $$ | X . O X X . . . . . . . $$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . $$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . $$ | X X . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

For the thermograph of the position after the sagari, this may be of interest. Hidden out of courtesy.

Bill Spight · **#1042**

It seems like the size of each of 4 gote in the ko ensemble such that the result for the sagari and the throw-in is the same is a miai value of 7½ points of territory.

That is big enough for White to sacrifice the corner.

The fact that taking the gote gains 7½ points may not be obvious. One one side it takes 8 points of territory, but on the other side it leaves a gote position worth, on average, ½ point to the other player. They are not simple gote, but, since there will be 4 of them at the end, they will be strict miai, adding up to an integer score.

Gérard TAILLE · **#1043**

Bill Spight wrote:

It seems like the size of each of 4 gote in the ko ensemble such that the result for the sagari and the throw-in is the same is a miai value of 7½ points of territory.

That is big enough for White to sacrifice the corner.

The fact that taking the gote gains 7½ points may not be obvious. One one side it takes 8 points of territory, but on the other side it leaves a gote position worth, on average, ½ point to the other player. They are not simple gote, but, since there will be 4 of them at the end, they will be strict miai, adding up to an integer score.

A lot of stuff Bill, and only two comments (hoping I am not wrong):

Bill Spight · **#1044**

Gérard TAILLE wrote:

Bill Spight wrote:

It seems like the size of each of 4 gote in the ko ensemble such that the result for the sagari and the throw-in is the same is a miai value of 7½ points of territory.

That is big enough for White to sacrifice the corner.

The fact that taking the gote gains 7½ points may not be obvious. One one side it takes 8 points of territory, but on the other side it leaves a gote position worth, on average, ½ point to the other player. They are not simple gote, but, since there will be 4 of them at the end, they will be strict miai, adding up to an integer score.

A lot of stuff Bill, and only two comments (hoping I am not wrong):

I was playing the game out at territory temperature 0. In which case there is no pass stone for Black.

In the beginning you did not specify the conditions, and when I said I assumed no ko threats and territory temperature 0, you did not object. You often leave me guessing.

Gérard TAILLE · **#1045**

Bill Spight wrote:

Gérard TAILLE wrote:

Bill Spight wrote:

It seems like the size of each of 4 gote in the ko ensemble such that the result for the sagari and the throw-in is the same is a miai value of 7½ points of territory.

That is big enough for White to sacrifice the corner.

The fact that taking the gote gains 7½ points may not be obvious. One one side it takes 8 points of territory, but on the other side it leaves a gote position worth, on average, ½ point to the other player. They are not simple gote, but, since there will be 4 of them at the end, they will be strict miai, adding up to an integer score.

A lot of stuff Bill, and only two comments (hoping I am not wrong):

I was playing the game out at territory temperature 0. In which case there is no pass stone for Black.

In the beginning you did not specify the conditions, and when I said I assumed no ko threats and territory temperature 0, you did not object. You often leave me guessing.

Sorry Bill I was not aware that playing the game out at territory temperature 0 means no pass stone. Do not forget I am not an expert

What about my second comment?

Bill Spight · **#1046**

Gérard TAILLE wrote:

Bill Spight wrote:

I was playing the game out at territory temperature 0. In which case there is no pass stone for Black.

In the beginning you did not specify the conditions, and when I said I assumed no ko threats and territory temperature 0, you did not object. You often leave me guessing.

Sorry Bill I was not aware that playing the game out at territory temperature 0 means no pass stone. Do not forget I am not an expert

What about my second comment?

Your second comment also relies upon the pass stone, no?

Edit: Sorry. :w5:

is already a mistake. Thanks.

----

Territory temperature 1 is the same as area temperature 2. So an ideal environment for the simple 1st line hanetsugi at area scoring must include Japanese dame, which have area temperature 1.

Gérard TAILLE · **#1047**

Bill Spight wrote:

It seems like the size of each of 4 gote in the ko ensemble such that the result for the sagari and the throw-in is the same is a miai value of 7½ points of territory.

That is big enough for White to sacrifice the corner.

The fact that taking the gote gains 7½ points may not be obvious. One one side it takes 8 points of territory, but on the other side it leaves a gote position worth, on average, ½ point to the other player. They are not simple gote, but, since there will be 4 of them at the end, they will be strict miai, adding up to an integer score.

I do not see what these 7½ points of territory means in the context of finding the thermograph of the position

White to play

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W White to play $$ -------------- $$ | . O . b X . . . . . . . $$ | a X O O X . . . . . . . $$ | X . O X X . . . . . . . $$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . $$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . $$ | X X . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Could you clarify what was your goal with this example Bill?
I used myself an environment with miai gote points to prove that the sagari may be the best move but I do not like very much such environment made of miai points. The goal seems clearly to use tunnelling effect in order to prove a specif point but I do not see how it could be useful to find a thermograph.

Gérard TAILLE · **#1048**

White to play

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W White to play $$ -------------- $$ | . O . b X . . . . . . . $$ | a X O O X . . . . . . . $$ | X . O X X . . . . . . . $$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . $$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . $$ | X X . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

I progress very slowly. For the time being I think the miai value of the position above is equal to 7 but I am not quite sure:

White to play

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W White to play $$ -------------- $$ | 4 O . 1 X . . . . . . . $$ | 5 X O O X . . . . . . . $$ | X 7 O X X . . . . . . . $$ | 3 O O X . . . . . . . . $$ | 2 O X X . . . . . . . . $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . $$ | X X . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

tenuki

tenuki
Score1 = -7 + 2t

Black to play

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Black to play $$ -------------- $$ | 3 O 5 1 X . . . . . . . $$ | 2 X O O X . . . . . . . $$ | X . O X X . . . . . . . $$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . $$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . $$ | X X . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

tenuki

tenuki
Score2 = 21 - 2t

Score 1 = Score2 <=> -7 + 2t = 21 - 2t <=> t = 7

Bill Spight · **#1049**

Gérard TAILLE wrote:

Bill Spight wrote:

It seems like the size of each of 4 gote in the ko ensemble such that the result for the sagari and the throw-in is the same is a miai value of 7½ points of territory.

I do not see what these 7½ points of territory means in the context of finding the thermograph of the position

White to play

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W White to play $$ -------------- $$ | . O . b X . . . . . . . $$ | a X O O X . . . . . . . $$ | X . O X X . . . . . . . $$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . $$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . $$ | X X . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Nothing directly. It has to do with the ko ensemble. Comparing the sagari and the throw-in in a ko position has to do with von Neumann game theory.

Gérard TAILLE wrote:

Could you clarify what was your goal with this example Bill?

To do what I did. You found the size of the gote that equalized the results for 3 gote, but what is the size for 4 gote?

Gérard TAILLE · **#1050**

Bill Spight wrote:

Gérard TAILLE wrote:

Bill Spight wrote:

It seems like the size of each of 4 gote in the ko ensemble such that the result for the sagari and the throw-in is the same is a miai value of 7½ points of territory.

I do not see what these 7½ points of territory means in the context of finding the thermograph of the position

White to play

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W White to play $$ -------------- $$ | . O . b X . . . . . . . $$ | a X O O X . . . . . . . $$ | X . O X X . . . . . . . $$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . $$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . $$ | X X . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Nothing directly. It has to do with the ko ensemble. Comparing the sagari and the throw-in in a ko position has to do with von Neumann game theory.

Gérard TAILLE wrote:

Could you clarify what was your goal with this example Bill?

To do what I did. You found the size of the gote that equalized the results for 3 gote, but what is the size for 4 gote?

Yes Bill with 4 gote the environment {+7½|-7½} + {+7½|-7½} + {+7½|-7½} + {+7½|-7½} works even with pure gote.
Your proposal {+7½|-7½} + {+7½|-7½} + {+7½|-7½} + {+7½|-7½} + {+½|-½} + {+½|-½} + {+½|-½} + {+½|-½} works also but it looks like 8 gote points.

Can't we go farther with the environment {+11|-11} + {+11|-11} + {+2|-2} + {+2|-2} which is also made of miai points?

White to play

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W White to play $$ -------------- $$ | . O . b X X O O O O O O O O O O O . O | $$ | a X O O X X X X X X X X X X X X X X O | $$ | X . O X X X O O O O O O O O O O O . O | $$ | . O O X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X O | $$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . X O O . O | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X O | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . O | $$ | X X . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X O | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

I do not know if we can reach a higher temperature with only 4 pure gote points in a miai situation.

Bill Spight · **#1051**

There are many possibilities for the ko ensemble.

Gérard TAILLE · **#1052**

Bill Spight wrote:

There are many possibilities for the ko ensemble.

OC Bill, that is the reason why I did not really understand why you proposed such example with a miai value 7½ in the environment.
It was just to help you I took some time to study some environments with 4 gote points in order to reach a higher temperature (11 in my example).

Bill Spight · **#1053**

Gérard TAILLE wrote:

Bill Spight wrote:

There are many possibilities for the ko ensemble.

OC Bill, that is the reason why I did not really understand why you proposed such example with a miai value 7½ in the environment.
It was just to help you I took some time to study some environments with 4 gote points in order to reach a higher temperature (11 in my example).

I appreciate that, thank you.

But remember, my pre-thermography method of ko evaluation basically used an environment of simple gote. That is not my focus, now.

Gérard TAILLE · **#1054**

Bill Spight wrote:

Gérard TAILLE wrote:

lowing position

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ -------------- $$ | X a X O O . . $$ | X O O O O . . $$ | X b X X O . . $$ | X O O O O . . $$ | X X . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . $$ | . . . , . . .[/go]

In CGT, with a non-ko environment, a play at b plainly dominates a play at a. And, even though nobody has proved it, AFAIK, experience says that it is dominated in ko environments, as well. A play at a may be correct in some circumstances, but it is still dominated. An amateur SDK who plays it instead of b is, at best, careless. For an amateur dan player I would say that it is a bad play.

black to play

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B black to play $$ -------------- $$ | X a X . O . . $$ | X O O O O . . $$ | X b X X O . . $$ | X O O O O . . $$ | X X . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . $$ | . . . , . . .[/go]

GO is a surprising game. It seems a black move at "b" dominates a black move at "a" in all circumstancies (I mean in a ko or non-ko environment) but it is not the case. It may happen than a black move at "a" is strictly better than a black move at "b". Do you see the point?

Bill Spight · **#1055**

Gérard TAILLE wrote:

Bill Spight wrote:

Gérard TAILLE wrote:

lowing position

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ -------------- $$ | X a X O O . . $$ | X O O O O . . $$ | X b X X O . . $$ | X O O O O . . $$ | X X . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . $$ | . . . , . . .[/go]

In CGT, with a non-ko environment, a play at b plainly dominates a play at a. And, even though nobody has proved it, AFAIK, experience says that it is dominated in ko environments, as well. A play at a may be correct in some circumstances, but it is still dominated. An amateur SDK who plays it instead of b is, at best, careless. For an amateur dan player I would say that it is a bad play.

black to play

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B black to play $$ -------------- $$ | X a X . O . . $$ | X O O O O . . $$ | X b X X O . . $$ | X O O O O . . $$ | X X . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . $$ | . . . , . . .[/go]

GO is a surprising game. It seems a black move at "b" dominates a black move at "a" in all circumstancies (I mean in a ko or non-ko environment) but it is not the case. It may happen than a black move at "a" is strictly better than a black move at "b". Do you see the point?

Very interesting.

I can guess that b has a strict miai that together act as a defensive ko threat.

Gérard TAILLE · **#1056**

Bill Spight wrote:

Gérard TAILLE wrote:

black to play

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B black to play $$ -------------- $$ | X a X . O . . $$ | X O O O O . . $$ | X b X X O . . $$ | X O O O O . . $$ | X X . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . $$ | . . . , . . .[/go]

GO is a surprising game. It seems a black move at "b" dominates a black move at "a" in all circumstancies (I mean in a ko or non-ko environment) but it is not the case. It may happen than a black move at "a" is strictly better than a black move at "b". Do you see the point?

Very interesting.

I can guess that b has a strict miai that together act as a defensive ko threat.

Not in the circumstances I found, but that does not mean that you cannot find a position where your idea applies.

This 'n' that

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