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 Post subject: Re: #72: Hummingbird Cyborg(3k) vs CSamurai (5k)
Post #21 Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2010 4:51 pm 
Lives in gote
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KGS: CSamurai
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[go]$$c Move 16 Prisoner Count: B=0 W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , B . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


So, this is always a strange place for me. This point in the opening, the corners are, more or less settled. I could go a few places, but I've chosen this one for simplicity. This is the 'largest' point on the board. Claiming it gives me a nice double wing formation, and makes white work.

Normally, I'd feel that this is too passive. It doesn't pressure white at all anywhere. Except with the fact that with this move, I've sketched out a fairly broad framework.

I can't keep all of it, but I only have to keep enough.

I guess no one was reading my detailed list of move analysis, and how I think about the opening, so I'll just go with this, since it's shorter.


This post by CSamurai was liked by: Hummingbird Cyborg
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 Post subject: Re: #72: Hummingbird Cyborg(3k) vs CSamurai (5k)
Post #22 Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2010 10:47 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Move 16 Prisoner Count: B=0 W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . X . . . . . W . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I was hoping a bit that I would get to approach there first, but his distant stone affects mine less than it should. I expect a pincer here. Perhaps I could dive into the corner.


EDIT: Sorry for the delay.
If I dove into the corner, I'd expect it to proceed something like this.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . X . a . X . O . 3 1 . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . 4 X 2 . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . 7 , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . b . . . X . . X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I don't hate this result. I could do this, try to reduce him, try to retain sente and invade on the bottom or grow my moyo on the left.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . X . 8 6 X . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . a 9 7 3 4 . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . 5 . 1 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . b . . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . d . . . X . . X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Perhaps he'd exchange a for b, perhaps not. Either way, he'd get sente and he'd get to play on the bottom left on the border of our two moyos. A play around c is huge. And I really want to get d in sometime soon.

And I thoughts about double approaches, but they give similar results to what I just played. Just a bit different, but I wonder how black would respond to this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . X . . . X . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . . . . . . . X W . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Maybe this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . X . . . X . O . 3 2 . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . . . . . . . X 1 . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Or this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 5 7 . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . X . . . X . O 8 2 3 . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . . . . . . . X W . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Anyway, these are some of my thoughts. It might be fun just to see what happens.


Last edited by Hummingbird Cyborg on Sat Sep 25, 2010 7:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: #72: Hummingbird Cyborg(3k) vs CSamurai (5k)
Post #23 Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2010 3:36 pm 
Lives in gote
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[go]$$c Move 18 Prisoner Count: B=0 W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . X . . . B . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



This is the only move worth thinking about. I could discuss why all the other joseki are too slack here. The key is the upper left group supports the pincer strongly. The only decision that remains is to decide what white's best response is, and decide on your responses.

If white jumps out, the joseki proceeds easily.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Move 16 Prisoner Count: B=0 W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 6 7 . |
$$ | . O X X . . . X . . . 1 . W . 8 5 . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . X 9 . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This is not what I'd call Ideal, it kills the aji in the corner, but it does settle the groups, so white may play this way. Usually, jumping out involves a counter attack on the left pincer, but that's pretty hard to do without further endangering the weak two stones.

Given that the counter pincer is also not great in this case, white should probably consider using this stone a different way.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Move 16 Prisoner Count: B=0 W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . X . . . 1 . W . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Given that I think this is the best response, I have to decide which way to play it.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Move 16 Prisoner Count: B=0 W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . X . . . 1 . W . 4 2 . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . 5 X 3 . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



This is my inclination to proceed. Black gains a wall which benefits the right greatly, white gets pressed small in the corner.

That's assuming white takes the corner in the first place.

If we turn the other way, you only gain a few more points on the top, rather than the large potential of the right.

That's assuming white moves into the corner at all, but I'm fairly confident, the sequence is necessary for white. If they don't, I'll be surprised.

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 Post subject: Re: #72: Hummingbird Cyborg(3k) vs CSamurai (5k)
Post #24 Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2010 8:13 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Move 19 Prisoner Count: B=0 W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . X . . . X . O . . W . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


So I thought about it.

I would really love this move if it helped build a huge central moyo:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . X . X X X . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . X O O O X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . a , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


But it really doesn't. I feel like it does more to secure some black territory and the influence is too easily negated by black. Also, black gets sente.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . X . a . X . O . O O 7 . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . X X X 8 . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . 3 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I feel like this is playable with a potential future invasion at a.

If black blocks this way:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . X . . . X . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The stone on the right's value is diminished, but he gets sente. And his top side looks big. Perhaps I could reduce it in sente, but the previously distant stone now looks well placed.

I don't know if I feel like I gain that much by the other move I examined, but I could wait and see if he answers "correctly". To be quite truthful, I'm not sure which way is best.

But, I decided to dive into the corner, because I like the second result the best after the follow up sequence. Whether it's right or not is another question entirely. I'll let a strong player answer that question.


Last edited by Hummingbird Cyborg on Sat Sep 25, 2010 9:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: #72: Hummingbird Cyborg(3k) vs CSamurai (5k)
Post #25 Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2010 8:27 pm 
Lives in gote
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[go]$$Wc Move 19 Prisoner Count: B=0 W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . X . . . X . O . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . X 2 . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Trigger:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Move 19 Prisoner Count: B=0 W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . X . . . X . O . 3 1 . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . 4 X 2 . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Joseki line?


Thoughts:
Again, this was the required move by white. I'm happy with it, since it allows me to build up my framework and gain influence while squashing white.
The important thing to recall right now is that his left side is possible to invade, as is my right side.

We'll probably start fighting soon.


Last edited by CSamurai on Sat Sep 25, 2010 9:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: #72: Hummingbird Cyborg(3k) vs CSamurai (5k)
Post #26 Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2010 9:00 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Move 25 Prisoner Count: B=0 W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . X . . . X . O . O O . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If I can get sente, I will probably invade the bottom. Though I've also considered expanding my moyo on the left. It's tricky trying to decide what to do.

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Post #27 Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2010 10:01 pm 
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[go]$$c Move 26 Prisoner Count: B=0 W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . X . . . X . O . O O . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O B . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The proper response to a shoulder hit is to extend. Extending up would be better if I already had a stone somewhere around the white stone in the lower right. Since extending up allows me to be separated from my strong wall, instead, I'm going to deprive white of a base. Since white's stone has no support, this movement, even if he pushes me down all the way along the wall, weakens his stones and strengthens mine.

I don't think this is the proper play in this board situation. Were I white, I'd play a cap over the star point, to reduce, rather than this deep, baseless, and unsupported invasion. That said, I'm famously bad at properly responding to such things, so maybe I'll screw up somewhere in this and it will work out for white anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: #72: Hummingbird Cyborg(3k) vs CSamurai (5k)
Post #28 Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2010 10:06 pm 
Gosei
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Q for Hummingbird Cyborg

I'd be hesitant to play the shoulder hit you did, because of the "play away from thickness" principle. Were you worried about creating a weak group here or getting pushed into black's wall? It seems like maybe black made it easy blocking underneath instead of Q10, what do you think?

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Post #29 Posted: Sun Sep 26, 2010 6:58 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Move 27 Prisoner Count: B=0 W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . X . . . X . O . O O . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Well, the shoulder hit is not really within black's sector lines:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . X . . . X . O . O O . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ {LN N15 R10}[/go]


If black pushes up, so can white:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . X . . . X . O . O O . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . 1 X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ {LN N15 Q10}[/go]


Now white's stones are certainly outside of black's sector line.

Of course, if black felt that he had a chance to attack (kill) white, he could play like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . X . . . X . O . O O . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . O 2 4 . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ {LN N15 P9}[/go]

But then 2 is sente and black's stones are split.

Now, black wants to avoid this, so my current move should be sente.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . X . . . X . O . O O . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #72: Hummingbird Cyborg(3k) vs CSamurai (5k)
Post #30 Posted: Sun Sep 26, 2010 4:36 pm 
Lives in gote
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Move 27 Prisoner Count: B=0 W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . X . . . X . O . O O . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Move 27 Prisoner Count: B=0 W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . X . . . X . O . O O . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Again, I think this is a mistake on the part of my honorable opponent. Let's discuss why.

When in a contact fight, it's important to strengthen your stones. This maneuver opens a weakness. Generally speaking, he's moving in what would be the correct direction if he weren't playing directly against a solid wall, but..

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Move 27 Prisoner Count: B=0 W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . X . . . X . O . O O . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 W 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 1 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This looks not so good for white. 2 at 3 looks even worse. This weakness is urgent to exploit. Too slack would be this response:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Move 27 Prisoner Count: B=0 W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . X . . . X . O . O O . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 2 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



While this is still good for black, white gets to jump away now, and the black group has weaknesses for later.

There is a third way of dealing with things:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Move 27 Prisoner Count: B=0 W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . X . . . X . O . O O . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If white blocks with 2 at 3, black will happily push through, and cut the weak group in half.

This is simplest, and ends with the most territory for black. It's possible that I should play this way instead of playing my impulse move of cutting first. But, the cut introduces weaknesses, and leaves white heavy and unballanced, so we'll go with that.


EDIT: minor spelling errors

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