Popularity of Go

nagano · #1

I originally wrote this on Starbaduk, but due to the lack of response and the nature of the topic, I decided to move it here:

Why is Baduk so much more popular in Korea? One interesting point to consider is that in China it has to compete with Xiangqi, in Japan it has to compete with Shogi, and in the rest of the world has to overcome a lack of knowledge and to some degree compete with Chess. I believe all these games are inferior to Baduk, but people have indicated to me that they are easier to relate to at first because they feel the basic goal is clearer. "Checkmate your opponent's King" is seen as an easier concept to understand than "make more territory than your opponent". In that sense Baduk maybe takes a little bit longer to get used to, and ends up losing more beginners in countries where these other games are prevalent. While Korea does have Jang-gi, that game is basically just an older, more flawed version of Xiangqi, and hence is much less popular, and I believe is not really a competitor for Baduk. (Correct me if I'm wrong on this.) The second element is obviously the worldwide fallout of traditional games' popularity, largely due to video games and other media. The third element and antidote to this is media portrayal, which is where Korea has an advantage. First, there is still the effect of Lee Changho's initial international success, which attracted many young Koreans to the game and even made it an element of national pride to some extent. This is tied to the game's perception because there are so many young pros, and Baduk TV often highlights them and tries to portray the game as cool. From what I've heard, China has no programing devoted exclusively to Baduk except some pay-per-view, and in Japan there is IgoShogi, but there again, it has to share time with Shogi, which gets more attention, especially among younger people. Actually I also think that the popularity of Shogi may also be a reason why Japan's Baduk performance has lagged behind in recent years. Their talent is divided between the two games, and even some Baduk pros in Japan spend some time playing Shogi as a hobby. There is no such distraction in Korea. So, the question now is: how can we take these things into account to help spread the game?

palapiku · #2

I doubt Jiangqi is so much inferior to Xiangqi or Chess that this inferiority explains its lack of popularity. It would need to be visibly broken, which it isn't. And it's not an "older version of Xiangqi", it has Korean innovations.

Kirby · #3

I think that there are many reasons that go is popular in Korea.

To name a few:
1.) BadukTV. Even if you don't know about go, if you have a basic set of channels, you can find BadukTV by just flipping through the channels. If you didn't know about go before seeing the channel, it'd be easy to stumble across it and wonder, "What is this game they're playing?".

2.) The KB League. This is kind of related to BadukTV, but some of the events and advertisements by the KB League look pretty cool with cool music. It gives go the feeling of a sport. It kind of reminds me of ESPN.

3.) It's viewed positively by some parents. Even my wife, who didn't have an interest in go, learned about the game as early as kindergarten when an instructor came to the class and taught all of the kids the rules. She may not have retained interest, but I'm sure a number of kids did. And even if they didn't, it's one of their childhood memories.

4.) Lots of go books are available at book stores. Just look for the "hobby" section in the bookstore, and you're bound to find go books.

5.) There's at least two go magazines that are released on a monthly basis.

6.) There are a lot of businessmen that are interested in go, and for that reason may be more willing to sponsor go events. Sometimes I even see businessmen featured in go magazines.

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Some may say that Batoo has helped make go popular in Korea. I've played Batoo, but I'm not sure how much it's actually helped gain attraction to go in Korea.

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7.) There is a historical basis for go. Historically, Korea has a background of Confucianism. Perhaps among the most elite in society were "Seonbi" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seonbi). Seonbi did not typically work. Their lives were a quest for knowledge. As such, they are regarded with a lot of respect, I think, even today, looking back.

Seonbi played go, did calligraphy, and studied. People in Korea today, therefore, might have a positive image of this spirit - this pursuit of knowledge.

I have heard, however, that people in Korea sometimes say that go in Korea has turned bad. It's not a pure quest for knowledge like it was for the Seonbi, but is now more about winning or losing... I guess that's another story.

---

In any case, there are a number of factors that make go popular in Korea, and these are a few that come to mind right now.

palapiku · #4

I think the biggest factor limiting the popularity of Go is that it's boring, slow, takes forever to play and doesn't have the dynamism and action of the Chess family. Its lack of popularity outside Korea is perfectly understandable. Korea is definitely a weird place.

The fact that in the West Go is most popular with programmers and mathematicians (well, there's HnG fans, too) is related - we are the only people boring enough to tolerate such a dull game.

Kirby · #5

Another interesting to note is that go is not the only game that's popular in Korea. Some other popular games include Go-Stop (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go-Stop) and Yut-nori (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yut).

So we may ask "why is go popular in Korea", but there's also the fact that go is simply among games that are commonly played there (along with games like Go-Stop and Yut-nori).

However, I have yet to see a TV channel devoted to Yut-nori... :-)

nagano · #6

palapiku wrote:

I doubt Jiangqi is so much inferior to Xiangqi or Chess that this inferiority explains its lack of popularity. It would need to be visibly broken, which it isn't. And it's not an "older version of Xiangqi", it has Korean innovations.

How much to you know about Janggi? Yes, there have been a number of Korean innovations made to it, but if you look into its history most of the rules come from an early (inferior) version of Xiangqi. Also, though I'm not sure about the exact numbers, I know it is less popular than Xiangqi and Shogi.

palapiku · #7

nagano wrote:

palapiku wrote:

I doubt Jiangqi is so much inferior to Xiangqi or Chess that this inferiority explains its lack of popularity. It would need to be visibly broken, which it isn't. And it's not an "older version of Xiangqi", it has Korean innovations.

How much to you know about Janggi?

Not much, just what I read on Wikipedia. If the game were obviously broken (too easy to play perfectly, big imbalance between the sides, skill ceiling too low) surely this would be mentioned. Quite the contrary, existence of "professional games" is mentioned, suggesting a deep game (there's no professional Connect 4).

Quote:

Yes, there have been a number of Korean innovations made to it, but if you look into its history most of the rules come from an early (inferior) version of Xiangqi.

If you look into the history of modern Xiangqi, most of the rules also come from an early (inferior) version of Xiangqi.

nagano · #8

Kirby wrote:

It's viewed positively by some parents. Even my wife, who didn't have an interest in go, learned about the game as early as kindergarten when an instructor came to the class and taught all of the kids the rules. She may not have retained interest, but I'm sure a number of kids did. And even if they didn't, it's one of their childhood memories.

Good one. Somehow forgot to mention it. An educational focus definitely changes things.

Quote:

There is a historical basis for go. Historically, Korea has a background of Confucianism. Perhaps among the most elite in society were "Seonbi" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seonbi). Seonbi did not typically work. Their lives were a quest for knowledge. As such, they are regarded with a lot of respect, I think, even today, looking back.

Yes, but how is this different from China and Japan? In fact, it could be argued that Korea has the least historical tradition of the three.

Kirby · #9

nagano wrote:

...
Yes but how is this different from China and Japan? In fact, it could be argued that Korea has the least historical tradition of the three.

Well, in regard to the historical aspect, I can only speak from my own experience.

Some of my relatives know that I play go, and they told me that they respected the game because of these reasons. They said talked about Seonbi, and how they were among the highest in society. They said many of the things that I mentioned in the previous post. I've also heard similar sentiments from some of the younger people that I've met, as well.

So I can only really speak for the people that have told me this.

China and Japan may have a historical basis, as well - but I haven't heard this as a reason for respecting go from any of the Chinese or Japanese people that I know. But it could very well be a reason.

I just know that this was a reason for respecting the game that was presented to me.

nagano · **#10**

palapiku wrote:

I think the biggest factor limiting the popularity of Go is that it's boring, slow, takes forever to play and doesn't have the dynamism and action of the Chess family. Its lack of popularity outside Korea is perfectly understandable. Korea is definitely a weird place.

The fact that in the West Go is most popular with programmers and mathematicians (well, there's HnG fans, too) is related - we are the only people boring enough to tolerate such a dull game.

If you mean boring to beginners, then I would agree. Actually I think Go is much more dynamic than Chess. It's just not as easy to see initially. Then again, maybe you are right. I started playing Go because the rules were the only ones in existence that met my "perfection" standards.

Quote:

If the game were obviously broken (too easy to play perfectly, big imbalance between the sides, skill ceiling too low) surely this would be mentioned. Quite the contrary, existence of "professional games" is mentioned, suggesting a deep game (there's no professional Connect 4).

The biggest problem is a higher frequency of draws.

Quote:

If you look into the history of modern Xiangqi, most of the rules also come from an early (inferior) version of Xiangqi.

Yes, but the difference is that the rule changes to Xiangqi either improved the function of the game or did not harm it. The opposite is true with Janggi.

Kirby · **#11**

By the way, considering the historical aspect more, there could be a difference between the quantity of historical game playing, and the way that the history is viewed.

That is, when I spoke with people about Seonbi, they had a very great deal of respect for this type of Confucius spirit.

It could be the case that, even if there is less historical go playing that's known about in Korea, it is still highly respected.

This is just speculation, though, because as I've mentioned, I am speaking only from my own experience on this particular item.

nagano · **#12**

Kirby wrote:

nagano wrote:

...
Yes but how is this different from China and Japan? In fact, it could be argued that Korea has the least historical tradition of the three.

Well, in regard to the historical aspect, I can only speak from my own experience.

Some of my relatives know that I play go, and they told me that they respected the game because of these reasons. They said talked about Seonbi, and how they were among the highest in society. They said many of the things that I mentioned in the previous post. I've also heard similar sentiments from some of the younger people that I've met, as well.

So I can only really speak for the people that have told me this.

China and Japan may have a historical basis, as well - but I haven't heard this as a reason for respecting go from any of the Chinese or Japanese people that I know. But it could very well be a reason.

I just know that this was a reason for respecting the game that was presented to me.

This makes me wonder, then, if Koreans still care more about their history, while many young people in Japan and China have sadly begun to forget it, or even consider it a negative: "Old people do that."

Kirby · **#13**

nagano wrote:

...This makes me wonder, then, if Koreans still care more about their history, while many young people in Japan and China have sadly begun to forget it, or even consider it a negative: "Old people do that."

I can tell you with near certainty that a great deal of Korean people care very much about their history... :-)

kokomi · **#14**

At the end, computer games will rule.

Chew Terr · **#15**

This thread reminds me: I've heard a fair bit about the history of go in Japan, but I'm ignorant of anything in the history of Korean go that was not mentioned in First Kyu. Can someone suggest a good place to read about Korean go history? For that matter, can someone point out the same for Chinese go history?

nagano · **#16**

kokomi wrote:

At the end, computer games will rule.

They may be most popular, but they are all fatally flawed at the moment because they have arbitrary rules, and it may not be possible to fix that. (But go ahead and try!)

Kirby · **#17**

Chew Terr wrote:

This thread reminds me: I've heard a fair bit about the history of go in Japan, but I'm ignorant of anything in the history of Korean go that was not mentioned in First Kyu. Can someone suggest a good place to read about Korean go history? For that matter, can someone point out the same for Chinese go history?

Here is a basic overview from the Korean Go Association:
http://www.baduk.or.kr/baduk/baduk_history.asp

I will work on translating it. I'll post it here in the meantime, though, in case anybody's interested.

kokomi · **#18**

Chew Terr wrote:

This thread reminds me: I've heard a fair bit about the history of go in Japan, but I'm ignorant of anything in the history of Korean go that was not mentioned in First Kyu. Can someone suggest a good place to read about Korean go history? For that matter, can someone point out the same for Chinese go history?

I'm more interested in the Go history outside CJK, each individual country.

I did not know the history of Go in Thailand, but according to an interview I watched recently, one famous company will help university students with amateur Dan level to find a job in the company. Actually the video says it will ensure a job position. Sounds goooood

Suji · **#19**

nagano wrote:

I believe all these games are inferior to Baduk.

To get a better picture of what you are trying to say, define inferior.

nagano wrote:

I originally wrote this on Starbaduk, but due to the lack of response and the nature of the topic, I decided to move it here:

Why is Baduk so much more popular in Korea? One interesting point to consider is that in China it has to compete with Xiangqi, in Japan it has to compete with Shogi, and in the rest of the world has to overcome a lack of knowledge and to some degree compete with Chess. I believe all these games are inferior to Baduk, but people have indicated to me that they are easier to relate to at first because they feel the basic goal is clearer. "Checkmate your opponent's King" is seen as an easier concept to understand than "make more territory than your opponent". In that sense Baduk maybe takes a little bit longer to get used to, and ends up losing more beginners in countries where these other games are prevalent. While Korea does have Jang-gi, that game is basically just an older, more flawed version of Xiangqi, and hence is much less popular, and I believe is not really a competitor for Baduk. (Correct me if I'm wrong on this.) The second element is obviously the worldwide fallout of traditional games' popularity, largely due to video games and other media. The third element and antidote to this is media portrayal, which is where Korea has an advantage. First, there is still the effect of Lee Changho's initial international success, which attracted many young Koreans to the game and even made it an element of national pride to some extent. This is tied to the game's perception because there are so many young pros, and Baduk TV often highlights them and tries to portray the game as cool. From what I've heard, China has no programing devoted exclusively to Baduk except some pay-per-view, and in Japan there is IgoShogi, but there again, it has to share time with Shogi, which gets more attention, especially among younger people. Actually I also think that the popularity of Shogi may also be a reason why Japan's Baduk performance has lagged behind in recent years. Their talent is divided between the two games, and even some Baduk pros in Japan spend some time playing Shogi as a hobby. There is no such distraction in Korea. So, the question now is: how can we take these things into account to help spread the game?

Let's take the USA as an example. I would be willing to bet money that everybody in the United States at least knows what chess is even if they don't know how to play. This is probably due to the fact that Bobby Fischer actually played in the match of the century in 1972. I'd say a lot of the enthusiasm about chess in the USA came from that and everyone knows about Bobby Fischer.

The USA has no well known professional Go players. Michael Redmond is American, but not well known. In fact, I had NEVER heard of any Go players professional or otherwise until I watched Hikaru No Go and started to become curious about the game and started researching it.

Why is Go not more popular in the USA? I think that there are a few reasons why.
1. Go is very much an Eastern Game. It takes a mental adjustment in order to play the game. What I mean by that is in Chess, one of the opening principles is Control the center. In Go, you want to control the corners and sides first. In Chess, one can be aggressive from the very first move, if it suits one's mood at the time. In Go, you have to be more patient. It's the Eastern vs. Western mindset.

2. Lack of professional system. Chess has a pretty big professional circuit in the USA. With Go, it is non-existent. If the USA had a professional Go circuit, it would be a lot more popular due to people trying to popularize the game in the schools, for example.

3. Lack of a World Champion. If Go had a World Champion, the game would be more popular since the World Champion could try to popularize the game in other countries, playing simuls, giving lectures, etc. Having a World Champion is not crucial or necessary, but it helps when there is someone who is considered "Best in the World" in a discipline.

nagano wrote:

First, there is still the effect of Lee Changho's initial international success, which attracted many young Koreans to the game and even made it an element of national pride to some extent. This is tied to the game's perception because there are so many young pros, and Baduk TV often highlights them and tries to portray the game as cool.

This doesn't surprise me due to the fact that the USA had a chess boom when Bobby Fischer was playing for the World Championship and even after.

How to make Go more popular with competing games? I'm not sure. Japan may be lagging behind right now, but they'll be back. So will China. In fact, I'm willing to bet that all three countries will have their turn at the top. Why look at Chess, Shogi, Xiangqi, and Jang-gi as competitors to Go? They're all abstract strategy games, and they're all fairly deep. The skills that you gain in one are, roughly speaking, transferable to the others. Of course, there is going to be some sort of learning curve to learn each game and the specifics may change from game to game, but in all of them the general use of tactics and strategy is incredibly important. What makes Go better than Chess? Or Shogi, for that matter?

The use of television to broadcast Go to popularize the game is ingenious. Korea definitely deserves praise for this. That won't work for all countries, though.

oren · **#20**

nagano wrote:

They may be most popular, but they are all fatally flawed at the moment because they have arbitrary rules, and it may not be possible to fix that. (But go ahead and try!)

You're assuming arbitrary rules is a fatal flaw. You first have to prove that.

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