I am curious about the efficiency of the league system, in terms of gain of strength.

Did you improve a little ? a lot since you've been a league member ?
How many ranks did you gain ?
Do you find the usual game reviews helpful ? Do you think there aren't enough of them ?

This is the place to give feedbacks and share your feelings about this "teaching / learning aspect"

CGB'

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Staying true to myself.

I think the ASR is exactly what I needed to improve, when I started playing. It has been a great driving force for me to play more games, which is exactly what I needed. I've only been a part for a little over a month now, but I feel like I've gained a stone. The regular reviews have indeed helped, but I only see them about 50% of the time or so. That said, I feel that if I ever wanted a quick review after the game, I could ask in the ASR room and get one. The variety of games definitely helps me, also. I am trying to think of anything that the league could do that would help me improve more... but I can't think of anything.

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Someday I want to be strong enough to earn KGS[-].

It's a great system, but it's too much like the KGS teaching ladder. For most of the players in the ASR there is really nothing that the ASR has or does that one cannot get in the KGS teaching ladder room.

I know I rattle my saber sometimes but I'll say it again; when I originally created the ASR, it was designed as a place for stronger players to come instead of hanging out at the KGS teaching ladder. There was a bar on entry; 5k. The reason was because there was already a KGS teaching ladder room; duplicating what went on in the KGS teaching ladder was viewed as:

a) a gigantic waste of time
b) an administrative nightmare

This was because the ASR (originally called, ironically, the Dan Study Room, which I merged with the old ASR) was going to operate more like a Go School than a teaching ladder (or, teaching league). In the original system there was a set of study materials which were provided; students were encouraged to drill similar sets of tsumego and memorize certain fusekis, josekis and pro games. This provided another level of unification where it felt that we could make progress and grow closer together and also stronger at Go. It was something we could share. Plus the smaller number of people, around 40% of the current number of people, meant that the league was actually more serious/personal and hmm, how can I say it, well, easier to administrate the various things including easier to run the "school" aspect of the room.

In the current system the ideas of the past were largely forgotten and today the only difference between the KGS teaching ladder and the ASR is that the ASR runs a league. That's really about it. Oh and there's prizes.

Basically, playing seriously in a league trains you to play seriously. In that respect it is a great idea to be in the ASR if you are interested in improving. Playing in a league easily gives you another stone or two over regular "casual" play. But over and above that you need to do more than just play seriously to improve *quickly*.

Anyways I won Gamma last month and the guy who was supposed to give me a teaching game never contacted me. And IIRC he was only like 1 or 2 stones stronger than me (!) yeah it just feels like the league is organized around kyu players right now, and is basically just the KGS teaching ladder done as a League.

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Oh my bad. I hadn't realized you were a 3d. Had I known, I would have pretty much certainly found someone else to teach. ( Oh ! and btw ! The student should contact the teacher, not the other way round)

I would loooove to have better prizes for dan players too. Maybe you haven't noticed (which would explain your systematical sceptiscim, I'm sure), but it seems we are in lack of sponsors for stronger players. We do have some, a few.

I am very upset when I can't provide somebody a prize. And believe me, or don't, I try to give every class winner a prize. ( even when it means, not being able to afford my OWN prizes). But here again, you may have not noticed the extra-prizes this month (for a total of almost 30 euros creditable on audiogolessons)I guess that's not enough. I should perhaps double this number next month.

Oh ! And the league you know now is pretty much different from the one you used to know. I see no point in trying to compare both, or to compare it with another. Maybe instead of ranting over and over about how "better" it used to be a few years ago or how better it is "elsewhere", you should not have quitted administrating in the first place ?

CGB

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Staying true to myself.

You are not kyouko, unless you have two accounts in the league; as both kyouko and cgbspender were in previously in gamma 1 together. If you meant that you were the one who assigned Kyouko to me -- Kyouko hasn't logged on since August 23rd so I couldn't contact him. Therefore my comment about him not contacting me is extremely valid to what I was saying. I'm going to go ahead and assume you spoke without checking the facts on this one, so no biggie ok?



Oh, i've noticed. So it would seem then, that my skepticism may have some valid element after all?



You're right, I'm not the administrator. I only offer my opinion because I want to help. I hope you were not trying to discredit my skepticism by discrediting me, claiming I was making wild or unfounded claims about my playing strength, or that I had not performed my duty as a student, or that I had somehow failed to administrate when it was my turn or that I was some sort of quitter/etc.. none of that has anything to do with my suggestions for the league anyways. (BTW I have zero interest in administrating anything these days). I just want to help from where I am in what I can. If you tire of my suggestions, tell me so. I'll stop giving them to you :p It's fine if you think I'm an outspoken blowhard. I can live with that.

I see your point about prizes and what not too, believe me. Had the prize been a game with you instead of Kyouko, I would have enjoyed learning something. Then again maybe if Kyouko and I had played, that is, if he had actually logged on in the last eight weeks, I would have lost and enjoyed the review with him. It's a pity that simply never happened and we will never know. Maybe something happened to him? Who knows? I reserve judgement.

Also please don't think I was disrespecting your prizes -- doesn't it just go to show that the league is more successful than before? That stronger players are coming in now? You can't offer a teaching game to a 2d or 3d if the teacher is 4d. That's more of an even game. It's the sort of game you would expect to see in alpha game and the winner would review anyways. Not much of a prize, no offense, because the league is more successful now. Take it for what it is, CG.

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4. trolling and insulting ppl won't help either...

so lets continue with the questions cgb asked:P

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admin of the ASR league and KGS admin

I feel I've gotten stronger, or at least less rusty. I'm sitting at 2d? at the moment, but I _feel_ confident that I can hold it without the ? too, and I wouldn't have said that 3 months ago.

I have only had 2 games reviewed, against karnesun, and that was appreciated and good. I've enjoyed the ones I've given.

I think the teaching / learning aspect works as well as one could hope for such a system. All I'd do is encourage in the notice in the room that winners and losers should always at least try to review the game together rather than just say "thx bye" as the purpose is to learn not just play.

Ooo, you are in it are you? I'm going to be trying to guess your KGS handle now

I think reviews can be done quite happily regardless of the strength difference, and I see "reviewing the game" as more discussing and analysing than the stronger player saying "this was wrong, you should do this" a number of times through a game. I played a 3k yesterday and we reviewed the game together with a 4k asking questions and being involved too, and it was more of a discussion / analysis than a review, and it worked really very well.

Ok, I guess I'll weigh in.

No, the ASR League has not had any significant effect on my improvement. Perhaps that's because I play as many games as I can on KGS, not just league games, and am comfortable playing at whatever time limits are available.

Every now and then I get a game with someone significantly stronger than I am, but most often I play those of similar strength and weaker.

I think that it is more likely that I have helped more to contribute to improvement for my classmates than I have gotten out of the league, personally.

To be fair, I always struggle to get enough games in for the League. It's not like I don't play any games on KGS ... it just seems that, after the 10th of each month, I can only count on maybe one or two more games each week as a maximum, often less than that.

I'm lucky this month. I got 6 games in the first week, and I bet I'll be able to play at least 3 more with some of the more active players in my league that I know (two with Loons and one with Frango). I still won't be promoted, I bet.

Hmmm, what classes have I been in?

Oct 09 - Class D - 7th out of 15 - 3-3 record - 5 opponents - demoted
Nov 09 - Class E - 6th out of 12 - 1-3 record - 3 opponents (trouble finding games)
Dec 09 - Class E - 3rd out of 15 - 10-3 record - 9 opponents - promoted (nice)
Jan 10 - Class D - 3rd out of 18 - 8-6 record - 10 opponents - n/a (league reboot)
Feb 10 - Class Odysseus - 11th out of 25 - 2-0 record - 2 opponents (trouble finding opponents)
Mar 10 - Class Odysseus - 12th out of 28 - 3-4 record - 7 opponents (trouble finding opponents)
Apr 10 - Class Odysseus - 14th out of 26 - 3-0 record - 3 opponents (trouble finding opponents)
May 10 - Class Odysseus - 20th out of 29 - 1-3 record - 4 opponents (trouble finding opponents)
Jun 10 - Class Gamma IV - 24th out of 28 - 1-3 record - 4 opponents (trouble finding opponents) - demoted
Jul 10 - Class Delta III - 5th out of 16 - 2-2 record - 4 opponents (trouble finding opponents)
Aug 10 - Class Gamma IV - 13th out of 32 - 4-5 record - 8 opponents (trouble finding opponents)
Sep 10 - Class Gamma III - 6th out of 14 - 2-2 record - 4 opponents (trouble finding opponents)
Oct 10 (12 days in) - Class Gamma II - 3rd out of 14 - 4-2 record - 5 opponents

So, I'm expecting to be in Gamma yet again next month. I can't set specific time aside for ASR League games, so I'm online whenever I can be, which is often, but not often enough, it seems. The pattern, for the past 8 months, is to get most of my games in before the 15th. After that, the opponents disappear.

The exception to this was Dec 09 and Jan 10, where I was actually able to play more than 50% of my possible opponents. Those two months were the only months in which I was able to do so.

I can't give any more time to the League than I already do. Should I give up on rising to the next class? My guess is that the ASR League is just not a good fit for my own improvement ...

Have you tried contacting them by PM ?

Do you mean when they're on I send them a message? Yes. That's how I get most (say, 90%) of my games. If you mean setting up the time beforehand, I don't have the luxury of a fixed schedule for Go.

EDIT: As a corollary to this, I am doing my best to find games. I assume my opponents are doing the same, for the most part. If my opponents are on at the same time I am, doesn't stand to reason that at least 50% of the time I should be receiving PMs for ASR games (and I do receive some, which is part of how I get my games) rather than sending PMs? It's not necessarily all on me to set up these games.

EDIT #2: This month, I'm trying to play as many games as I can ... but because I'm playing so often, it's natural that I'm playing during times when I'm lacking sleep, when I'm distracted, and many other ways in which I could be playing a sub-par game. I don't enjoy playing games while I'm feeling like this, but I have to if I'm going to keep up with the rest of the leaders in my group. The result is that I play games which are HORRIBLE. How do you learn from a game where your mistakes are because you're running on 3 hours of sleep? I don't think it's fair to my opponents, either.

I've resigned myself to my position as an eternal Gamma.

It's important to remember that the ASR League has an activity based structure - that is, you get points for losses, so often times more wins, more promotions.

That said, it seems that the majority of people in ASR are Euro, so hence the most people seem to be on in the afternoon, so whatevertime a european afternoon is for you.

While i've managed to promote a few months, must remember that most of the people in the lower classes are kyu players, so it is not terribly difficult to win your games and promote. Of course you can pick who/when you play and see how it goes.

Alpha is a different beast - so I have to be sharp to have a real shot at these guys. The problem is they get on when ti's 11pm my time, so it's hard to be so sharp when I play, and sadly i can lose quite a few won games... but I don't see a way to remedy this problem.

As for T game prizes - I'm supposed to have a T game with Vortex, but he has the same issues i do with time zones and since we're in the same league, I'm just going to play him in the league. It is difficult to find people to really TEACH dan players, because you need someone quite strong, and of course they will charge.

That said, I've gotten a little better and really enjoyed the league It's nice to play a bit more serious with people of all levels