:black:

Let the game begin!

I've been opening wih this particular 3-4 stone lately. My current opening experiments are with the extension from R16 to M17. I first saw the idea in the 2010 Fujitsu Cup Final game:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c 2010 Fujitsu Cup Final - Lee Sedol -B- vs Kong Jie -W-
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

It's an interesting formation. However, it's a bit early to put down a set sequence. It's only the first move, after all.

As Bruce Lee said: "Be Like Water" ... I intend to flow with whatever game my opponent hands to me. Let's see if I can catch that elusive "flow of the stones" and ride it to victory!

At the very least, I'm sure my humble opponent will drive the game into interesting directions.

Well then, I'd better try to do my best at that! Your idea with the Lee Sedol - Kong Jie game does look cool (for you), so I figure I may as well deny it. I had originally planned to take the 5-3 at E17, but, on considering that if we both enclosed our corners, you would get the initiative to decide how to handle the bottom. Instead, I like this aggressive first approach. I figure, if you pincer or something, I can likely calmly take another corner. However, if you take another corner yourself, I'm tempted to start the taisha here (depending on where you play, of course), because I've enjoyed playing it lately and it tends to suit my style of play.

As far as your reference to the "Be Like Water", that's why I like playing white. I like reacting to my opponent's plan more than making my own. While this move is more aggressive than the 'flow along with' idea, it still sets up an interesting situation to see how things flow along from here.

I admit, the Taisha would be very interesting. However, I can always avoid complications by playing a simple variation.

I want to try and follow some of the fundamental opening principles that are attributed to Yilun Yang. I haven't had the opportunity to read his book(s), but I remember that an empty corner has top priority, followed by an approach to an asymmetrical corner or juncture point along a side.

So, since I want to take an open corner, I have to consider what you might do next, especially if you continue to attack that corner.

Let's look at that first, then I can use that as part of my decision for my move:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . 2 . a . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This was the first thing that popped into my head as a possibility, since you mentioned the Taisha. I like this simple non-taisha variation. Note that could be at a and a similar outcome would occur.

Another possibility is that you might simply press down on ...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . 2 . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This is a similar outcome, too.

There's another possibility, of course ... you could pincer my stone instead ...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . 9 . , 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Even here, it feels like the top left corner would be most important. So, I think I'll play there. However, I want to avoid making a play by you at K17 into a good play. There are too many variations (more than I've shown here) that end with White on K17. Options?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . d b e . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . |
$$ | . . c a f . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . |
$$ | . . h g . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

First the 4-4 and the two 3-4 plays. Right away I eliminate a and b because they make an eventual White stone at K17 too good for White to pass up. Playing at c invites an approach at f by White, and I'm not sure I really want to give that.

The 3-3 at d feels like it could have some merit, but I don't feel like playing it in this game. I discarded it without much analysis, I'm afraid, so it might be something to consider in my future studies.

The 4-5 and the 3-5 at g and h feel like they're pointing in the wrong direction. White has good approaches to both that allow for a good position with the upper right corner.

That leaves e and f, the other 3-5 and 4-5 moves. I initially wanted to play the 4-5, but after looking at the continuations from the upper right, it felt like the 4-5 left a lot of avenues for White to attack. It seemed like I should avoid a position like the following:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 0 . . 8 . . . . 2 . . . . |
$$ | . . 9 , 3 . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Now, that same sequence with the 3-5 in place seems a lot better for me:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 3 . . . . 8 . . . . 2 . . . . |
$$ | . . 9 , . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

My shimari points in a good direction, and it's hard for White to really attack the position.

So, in the end, I chose your E17. Interesting how that turned out. My suspicion is that you will now take the lower left corner. We'll see if I'm right ...

The direction of play page 141 recommends black's move here. If white approaches under the 5-3, it will transpose into opposing komoku, which is a favorable pattern for black.

Okay, I have thought a lot about this positions, and have some thoughts.

First, I respect this move by my opponent. Not only is it a wicked direction with regards to the top right, as Red rightly points out, it's claiming an empty corner while taking into account mmy existing stones. Efficient and productive.

Second, Robert Jasiek says that it is often helpful to consider two empty corners miai, if all other things are equal. If other things ARE equal, it might be good to take my taisha, to acquire a stable group on the top, which was prioritized by my opponent's top left stone. I did, as I said, a lot of looking and thinking. In my humble opponent's last diagram, I got a stable group, my opponent gets a low group in the top right, and my opponent gets an enclosure in the top left. That enclosure faces south, making the west side and southwest corner important. If I already have that corner, I can take a nice checking extension. So, that's what would happen if I take that corner and MHO takes the bottom right. That seems reasonable to me.

What if MHO does not take the bottom corner? Either he would make his enclosure, in which I could go ahead and take the other star or start the Taisha Beast, he could play in the top right (with either a pincer or a more defensive move. In any of these cases, taking the bottom right seems reasonable. I would have two corners (loosely), my opponent would have two top loose corners of his own. He could threaten my stone strongly, but that would still be okay, as it's only one stone. Not to mention, I could probably settle it up there if I decided I really need to.

So, I like the idea of taking the bottom left corner. I'm going to stick with a 4-4, in order to keep my options open. I don't want to commit to one side of the bottom before it's clear. I considered several alternatives, but it's 3 in the morning, so I should probably just make my move, rather than keep rambling.

As expected, my opponent chose to play the bottom left corner. The 4-4 stone adds some tension at the juncture point at C10/D10 for later. There is still one empty corner, so I'm going to take that. However, the considerations I took concerning now need to be re-evaluated. With this new stone on the board, I am unlikely to follow my previous variations in the upper right without further evaluation.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b c . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ? ? . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . ? ? ? . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ? ? ? . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The position in the upper right is important. I'm not worried about the Taisha (b) or the pincer (c), since either of those gives me more freedom to choose a variation. The point that I need to be concerned about is the press down (a). I feel that I must respond to it, if it is played. Catching the flow of this game will require me to take that into account now rather than later, since White can force it upon me.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . a . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ? ? . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . ? ? ? . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ? ? ? . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This is the likely outcome, and White gets the choice of A or B. If A, I'm not sure if I'll make the typical shimari at C16, or if I'll play something on a larger scale, like D14. I haven't decided yet.

If B, I'll likely take A myself.

In all these situations, I give White thickness and get enclosed in the corner. Taking this into consideration, I want to make sure I play something to help negate his inluence, and maybe take some of my own.

I think I'll take the 4-5 at Q5. It's influence oriented, so I should be able to keep a balance of territory and power on the board, and it starts working to negate some of the thickness my opponent gets in return.

This doesn't make the press down at Q15 a bad move for White, so I think that's what my opponent will do.

I thought about it for a sleepy while, and my brain cannot come up with a better alternative. I think we may as well start the mess up here. While the 5-4 stone played by my opponent seems like it could support anything he gets on the right (while giving him influence), I feel like I still have reasonable options. If we do something like my opponent predicted, I settle easily and his group is too low to be horrifying. If we end up a more complex variation, I think that and are too far away to be game-breaking or anything. As my opponent has two corners and I have one, I may as well go 2-1 in the corner that I can.

Topazg: My opponent has done more to make the game interesting than I have. While I approached early, he could have played many simpler moves to respond. Instead, everything has been much more interesting (and scary).

Shaddy: Yeah, that would have been pretty scary...

I have to run for a while, but thanks again for playing/commenting on the game, ya'all. I'm enjoying it!

My wife is currently typing for me. I am rubbing her shoulders.

My opponent has decided to start the Taisha, so I feel I should work towards a more complicated variation. As my opponent indicated, the simple variations I showed during the analysis of move would only make him very thick. I can't make this game too easy on him...

There is still at least one simple variation that I can aim for here:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . O 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . 8 1 2 X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 3 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This variation splits the corner. I'm not pressed down like I would be in some of the previous variations, and white's influence doesn't seem as strong.

As for my wife, she wanted to see what would happen if I played at P15. I don't know if that particular move is joseki or not, but it might be interesting. I am just not sure how it would continue. The one variation I could think of didn't seem to suit the game:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 4 3 X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 1 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This continuation doesn't quite feel right, but I haven't thought about it enough yet, to be sure whether it is good or bad.

I am a little nervous about this, because it seems likely that my opponent will get a strong shape on one side or the other. Regardless, it will work well with his facing corner, and his other corner can help to work with it. However, the two other corners do have easy approaches to take the corner, so perhaps I can steal the corner later and make black overcondensed in the area. Again regardless, it's too late to back down now, so let's ride this out and see where it starts to go. Sorry that I have not been drawing too many diagrams, but my opponent's cover the most likely options. I'll show anything that I think of as we go along, but for the moment, I'm mostly just riding along and coming up with things on the fly.

Not much more to say here. My opponent is trying to complicate things, but I'm quite comfortable with how this is turning out. What Chew says is true ... he can invade beneath either of my corners later. Once that happens, I'll want to try and gain sente.

This is quite an interesting game so far. My opponent shouldn't be unsatisfied ... it's only just begun, and things are still pretty even as far as I can tell.

I welcome any questions from observers. I'm always willing to explain in further detail on specific points, but I'm never sure what points I should cover. Let me know! I'll write more!

I'll pause the joseki here, to let you choose between the easy way and the hard way. Obviously, the joseki you've posted is the easy way. Saving your lone stone is the hard way. I expect you'll take the easy way just because the hard way tends to break up this corner into no points, and both of your other corners are prioritizing this corner. Still trying to figure out the best way to deal with it afterwards, if you take the 'easy way'. If you do, I'll probably have a strong shape facing west, but I'm torn about how to deal with the 5-3 stone. I'll give it some more thought and try to report back.

Thanks again Marcus, this is a fun game! Hard work already, but fun!

White gets the chance to use sente. Let's look at the final position:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wm16 Prisoners: B=0, W=1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . O O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O C O X . . |
$$ | . . . a . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I absolutely believe that White should press down here. It plays along the widest side, and tries to prevent Black from playing the influence game in this area of the board. I'm still examining continuations from here ... the after most common response, something like this could occur:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wm16 Prisoners: B=0, W=1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . O O . . . |
$$ | . 4 2 , . a . . . , . . . O C O X . . |
$$ | . . 3 1 . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White has made a nice framework on the left side. prevents a double-wing formation, but the point at a has been neglected ... White can further press down on the upper left at a later, I think.

I think this could be fine for Black. I'm still thinking about possible ways to respond to , so I might not respond this way in the end.

I went back and forth on whether or not to play this, at first thinking it was sente. However, no for a while I convinced myself otherwise. My reasoning is here:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm16 Prisoners: B=0, W=1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . O O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . W X O a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

However, I saw this refutation before I posted the move. However, it doesn't work, because I have 'a', then if I'm forced to connect, the push and cut threat works and we become strong in sente.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm16 Prisoners: B=0, W=1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . O O . . . |
$$ | . . B , . . . . . , . . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . W C O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This doesn't seem to work either.

Long story short, I'm back to thinking it's sente. It's a tradeoff, I suppose. If it's aji-keshi, it's because it negates the threat of a sente-ish forcing move at R12. Regardless, I've gone back and forth, and decided that this thickness is worth any loss of aji locally. If someone could comment on this move, since I'm not sure if it's joseki, I'd appreciate it.

That approach (D15) is one I haven't seen in a long time, and I was struggling to remember the proper followup. Is your joseki knowledge that much better than mine, or did you look it up? Either is fine for this game, I'm just curious how far behind the power curve I am with respect to joseki knowledge...

This does seem like it is sente. At the very least, I can't see a good reason not to respond.

In terms of the press down at D15, there have been a few reviews I've watched recently concerning this press-down, and I've used it recently. I wouldn't have known the continuation I've shown a few weeks ago.

Now, as to the next move ... I like the press-down at D15 for White, but I'm now thinking I want to move away from the typical joseki. There's another answer I haven't tried yet, but I've seen it a few times:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm16 Prisoners: B=0, W=1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 9 8 X . . . . . . . . . O O . . . |
$$ | . . . 7 . . . . . , . . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . 3 4 6 . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . a 5 . . . . . . . . 1 X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I think the continuation involves the cut at a, and becomes a mess very quickly. Regardless of which responses I choose, I'll have to read a bit.

As to joseki knowledge, I tend to accumulate it as I see them used. I have a habit of watching a lot of games on KGS of various ranks. I've found that around 5k or so, some players start to experiment with the 5-3, and thus start experimenting with the Taisha. My knowledge of the joseki stems from studying a few of those games and deciding what lines I'm comfortable with, and how to reach them.

Recently, I'm finding that 2k+ players don't shy away from playing Avalanche joseki, so I've learned a little bit about that set of joseki shapes as well.

Don't get me wrong, my knowledge is far from complete. However, my recent thoughts on joseki concern similar shapes among classes of joseki, such as joseki that start with attachments (as above).

A lot of my "joseki knowledge" comes from trying to transpose positions into more familiar shapes. For instance, I could tenuki if you approached at D15, and allow it to become a low approach, possibly to a 3-3 like so:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm16 Prisoners: B=0, W=1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . X . . 6 . . . . . . O O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

All these options, and I've only examined one possible move you could make.

If you don't play D15, none of this matters at all.

I kept looking for different ways to play this, but I'm really iintrigued by this move and some of the variations that my opponent showed for it. While it's less likely to get the corner, it seems further out in both directions, which is where I want to be at the moment. As far as what I expect my opponent to play, I expect the original diagram most. It settles fast where he's weak, and while I get a framework, it's undercut, at least.

I really don't expect tenuki, because I think it's too good for me.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm16 Prisoners: B=0, W=1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . X . . 6 . 7 . . . . O O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This just seems too good for white. It feels like, by the time black stops running or lives in the top left, white would have built more up. Immediately ceding the corner by falling back is interesting, but probably also too much for white. Regardless, I'm expecting the block at the 3-4 armpit hit.

Again, as a result I expect the diagram my opponent posted earlier, reposted here:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wm16 Prisoners: B=0, W=1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . O O . . . |
$$ | . 4 2 , . a . . . , . . . O C O X . . |
$$ | . . 3 1 . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . a . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

All 'a' points look interesting. The leftmost is beautiful with 5, the middle one looks like fun moyo-building, and the rightmost one, which I know the least about, sets me up for influence, or inducing my opponent to force me to make territory (If he took the second 'a', I would have to take the first). Not sure if it's actually good though, or if it'd be forcing him to take what he wants. I'll have to do some more thinking before it gets this far down the line.

Marcus: Sorry to just keep reposting your diagrams, but you cover the options well, so it's hard to add much besides my own opinions on each.

I remember a game between Shusaku and Ota Yuzo (shown below) where the 5-3 high approach joseki that's been talked about was actually played twice.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . , 6 . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . 7 8 . . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$m11 Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . 1 , . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . O . 5 . . . 3 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I think Invincible gives the following as a more modern alternative

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 2 . . . . 8 . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I've spent lot of time reading/studying that book so I just thought that was interesting, don't know if anyone else thinks so though