He was born a hard worker. You can't do anything about that.

Wow, I keep disagreeing with you today.

Actually, talent is something that is well recognized, in many fields; it's been studied quite a bit: in music, for example, it's a deeper understanding of notes and harmonies that doesn't need to be taught as much. For go, I'd say it's a better aptitude toward recognizing and remembering patterns, and an ability to read (ie, visualize).

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My blog about Macs and more: Kirkville

It is highly unlikely to be born a hard worker (there are no absolutes). That's like saying that people are born to be able to quit smoking.

Being able to work hard is gained through:
1. The need to improve
2. The meaning to work hard (they might not realize it, but their subconscious already has that meaning)
3. The pleasure found in working hard. This is not superficial, but rather, some kind of good addiction.

Genes take care of many things. It can take care of how much glucose is used in the brain. It can make the eyebrow ridge smaller to fit a bigger pre-frontal cortex.

I believe any average person who loves igo more than anything else in their life and starts before 14yo could reach the strength of 9p. Any higher (eg: Gu Li, Lee Sedol) would probably need an evolutional advantage.

There also is the case of whether or not genes greatly influence the love of the game. Well, that won't solidify publicly for at least 20 years.

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LoL forum:
"Complexity is Magic: The Gathering, lots of tiny rules and special cases, and basically every single card is a unique case. Depth is Go: the game has 4 rules, and it takes literally decades to learn how to play that game well."

I want to be the first to make a proprietary claim on the Go gene once it's discovered. Hence, any and all monetary gain as a result of exploiting the genetic propensity to excel at Go will be legally subject to a 5% genome trademark fee to be paid in perpetuity. This of course includes full control of the distribution of all relevant game records, advertising rights, and kin selection.

Lee Sedol, you now work for me.

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"This is a game that rewards patience and balance. You must think like a man of action and act like a man of thought."
-Jonas Skarssen

I don't know if I agree with my previous post as I was just joking but it is something I think about a lot.
If I get good marks in an exam, it's because I revised for it. But what made me revise for it? There are others in my class who do not revise. Why do I work hard? Should I really be rewarded for my hard work if it's just something my genes make me do?

In commentaries on of top amateur games it seems to me that there is a striking accumulation of "This move has been played in the wrong direction."

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The really most difficult Go problem ever: https://igohatsuyoron120.de/index.htm
Igo Hatsuyōron #120 (really solved by KataGo)

This is an interesting observation. I think pros place a lot of weight on this particular talent indicator. I remember reading how Cho Hunhyun thought Lee Changho would never be a great player because he could not replay his games from memory, even just after he'd played them. When Lee set the Go world on fire, Cho said he was "a different kind of genius".

I remember talking about this back on GD, on my "dual n-back" thread. I wish I had more insight into what pros think about the role of memory in Go... I'm thinking Cho's stance probably isn't unique among great players.

I guess I'm surprised that anyone would question the importance of talent.

In two of my main hobbies, guitar and chess, I have put a lot of time and effort into improving my skills.

But I see many, many people who put in much less effort who are much better than me. I don't mean a little better, I mean probably better than I could ever be even if I devoted myself to it full time. Some people just have a knack, a gift, a talent, whatever you want to call it.

I think the top pros in Go must be both talented and hardworking. Otherwise, like someone already said, they would be beaten constantly by the other players who are both extremely talented and hardworking, and they wouldn't be top players to begin with.

If you are going to compete against others in any competitive field, I think that unless you are a truly unique person there will always be someone more talented than you. You may be able to make up some of the difference in talent by exceptionally hard work, but it is likely you won't be able to make up all of the difference with the most talented people.

All that having been said, I have a lot of sympathy with Kirby's viewpoint, and I feel like it is positive thing to be optimistic about your full potential and to try and realize it.

I strongly disagree. When I have really worked hard at something, I have never been disappointed. I am only disappointed when I have slacked off.

And even if you work hard at something and fail, the process that you go through in trying to achieve your goal makes it well worth it.

I'm reminded of the popular quote, "Whether you think that you can achieve something or if you think that you can't... You're right.". But being optimistic is only one part of the story. You still have to put forth the effort.

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be immersed

"Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better." Samuel Beckett

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My blog about Macs and more: Kirkville

Uhm, I, too, find it very suprising, that so many people seem to rely on talent and say hard-work is just a poor try to achieve, what doesn't seem one's destiny.

Of course everything will be easier if you are somewhat gifted. But if you get lazy about that, the hard-worker will surpass you. Even if he can't, he will still be better than like 90% of other people doing the same.

So, what is the ground here? Don't even try because you probably can't be number one? I think this reflects the attitude flOvermind described.

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My "guide" to become stronger in Go

I think you misunderstood my point. I'm arguing against the simplistic notion that the only thing one needs to be successful is hard work. It's trivially not true. You can work hard at something, be proud of the process (not disappointed), and still fail (not succeed). So I'm not sure what you're strongly disagreeing with.



Who suggested this?

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"This is a game that rewards patience and balance. You must think like a man of action and act like a man of thought."
-Jonas Skarssen

I don't think this discussion will go very far until someone provides a specific definition of "talent" and "success"/"failure" that everyone can agree on .

Maybe I misunderstood your point. If you are saying just that, despite hard work, you can still fail at something, then I agree.

I guess that I am saying that it is impossible to say with certainty that you cannot do something, even if you worked and failed. If you fail at something, there is always the chance that a little bit more work could have made you succeed. You cannot know for sure, despite how likely failure may have seemed to have been inevitable.

Because of this uncertainty, though I allow for the possibility that failure could be inevitable even through enough effort, I want to tell myself that anything is possible with enough work.

It cannot be proven otherwise, and I cannot prove that hard work is enough to do anything. But do I have control of my talent? No. Do I have control of my effort? Yes.

So I want to make best of that which I have control of.

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be immersed

I don't know what to say to this. I don't think that working hard disadvantages somebody. You prefer to not work hard? Aren't you curious about the potential that you may have but have never discovered?



Sorry if I'm sounding self-righteous. It's definitely not my intention. While I do believe that I can do anything with enough effort, it is not something limited to me personally. I believe in the power of human ability.

Yes, some people have talent that might give them an advantage. But I believe that human ability is strong and can overcome that.

It's not about me. It's a nature of mankind.



I don't see why talent should be admired over hard work. Do you admire people that are physically taller than you?

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be immersed

My interpretation, of course.

By the way, I agree with you: Hard-work alone might not bring the success one might look forward to. But as it goes between talent and hard-work, talent is not a one-way-street to success, either.
In my view, hard-work is still more valuable than talent. Talent is somehow fixed on specific areas, whereas hard-work can boost your expertise in many more areas.



Helel
I think, you just cut my (half-)sentence out of the proper context - read it as a whole ; )




Interesting question for me: What do you think, why people fail in achieving goals?




Okay, that might be your point of view. I don't think that someone who is working hard to achieve his dreams becomes a hollow shell. Of course there are extremes, as always. (Same response to number 3.)

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My "guide" to become stronger in Go

Maybe this is true. I'll try to make some definitions:

1.) I think of talent as the innate abilities that people have and cannot control.
2.) I think of effort as the process of trying to improve upon the abilities that you have.

My basic argument is that, while "talent" may give some people advantages, "effort" can overcome those advantages with enough work. I cannot prove this, but I like to maintain this thought. If it's correct, then more effort will always produce more results. If the thought is not correct, then there's nothing that you can do about your talent anyway.

3.) I think that "success" can come in many different forms. Achieving your goal can be a success, and also the process of achieving it can be a success.

I don't like the idea of giving up on a goal, simply because you've convinced yourself that you don't have enough talent.

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be immersed

It would be interesting to have demographic information on some of the current pros, family history, socioeconomic background, and so on. I bet we'd find similar profiles in terms of the resources available to them early on. As John has already said, there's more to it than just talent and hard work.

My point is that we often retrospectively create these idealized narratives, which draw upon cultural and personal values and gloss over the less remarkable, non-heroic details. These details are typically key features that go untold – they screw up the story. A good example is the interview with Lee Sedol http://lifein19x19.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=307


Is this the answer we would have expected from the top Go player in the world? Of course not. Why not? The real world tends be pretty boring.

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"This is a game that rewards patience and balance. You must think like a man of action and act like a man of thought."
-Jonas Skarssen

I guess that I don't see it the same way for reasons that I've already pointed out. I'm OK with that, though. People have different mindsets and ways of looking at life. I think that you get an idea of what mine is, and I hope that it didn't come across as self-righteous like somebody pointed out.

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be immersed

Not at all. I was surprised by that characterization.

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"This is a game that rewards patience and balance. You must think like a man of action and act like a man of thought."
-Jonas Skarssen