What makes them 9-dan?

Kirby · **#41**

Helel wrote:

...
Nighter do I. If you care about something I believe that the proper course is to continue no matter what.

With the point above, it seems that we agree. The important thing to me is the part that I've put in bold above. This is probably the underlying belief that I have on this topic.

Helel wrote:

...
I am quite aware of my potential, my abilities and my limitations, so the answer has to be no...

This is probably the part I agree with the least. I am not sure how you are aware of your potential, abilities, and limitations. Is it possible that you could achieve more than you think?

By the way, I don't really get this one:

Helel wrote:

Kirby wrote:

Do I have control of my effort? Yes.

No. That sense of control is only an illusion.

Could you explain what you mean by this? I would think that I have control over the amount of time that I study, exercise, etc... I don't really get what you mean here.

Cassandra · **#42**

Kirby wrote:

1.) I think of talent as the innate abilities that people have and cannot control.
2.) I think of effort as the process of trying to improve upon the abilities that you have.
3.) I think that "success" can come in many different forms. Achieving your goal can be a success, and also the process of achieving it can be a success.

I think of "talent" as something like "fitting into a special ecological niche".

If you "survive" (e. g. "have success"), depends on other factors, one of these will be "effort" / "(very) hard work".

And it will be easier to "survive", if you are a perfect match to the "ecological niche" you have (perhaps been) chosen to "live" in.

Remember that there are only a "few" 9 Dan in the Asian Go playing community of some 10 million people. Who knows, if there might be someone in that large crowd, who would have been a perfect match to Chess, but never had the chance to play it ?

Violence · **#43**

On a different note...

Quote:

As to how far such "non-professional amateurs" are from the top in go, I'm sure it is at least four stones. I find it laughable to hear so many westerners claim they can match a top pro on four stones in serious games.

I think that's just ridiculous. You're saying that Gu Li can give Hu Yuqing 4 stones? Look at their games, that's clearly impossible. Likewise, I don't think Lee Sedol can give Korean insei 4 stones, nor can he give 4 stones to the amateurs who win the national tournaments.

Whatever gap there may have been between pros and amas in the past, it has surely shrunk. At least, I have never heard of the claim of a gap as large as yours. Four stones? I just can't believe that.

John Fairbairn · **#44**

Violence, you must learn to read. I said, and you quoted, "non-professional amateurs". An awkward phrase, admittedly, hence the "", but I think I made it plain that I was not talking about ex-inseis and the like who have trodden part of the professional path. Indeed, quite a few of these are amateur only in the sense that they have not been accepted by the pro organisations. They are often full-time players, e.g. running go salons or working in training squads. There are also some who are just temporarily amateur on their way to professionaldom, which is why I also referred, for contrast, to "permanent amateurs".

The difference between what I might just as awkwardly call these "professional amateurs" and top pros, seems - judging by the annual pro-am events in JCK, to hover, on average over the top 10 boards, between 1.5 and 2.5 stones. Even the somewhat exceptional Hu Yuqing had to take 2 stones in his last Wangbao Pro-Am Match.

I still believe that the bulk of top TRUE amateurs, as in the west, will find it hard to match a top pro on 4 stones in a serious game. Even Xie Yimin, "only" 4-dan, last year gave 4 stones in a serious published game against a very distinguished amateur in Japan (Miyoshi Toru, who is actually a professional go writer). It ended in jigo, and if someone claimed Xie even contrived the jigo, I might say hmm, but would not utter a knee-jerk "just ridiculous".

Kirby · **#45**

Helel wrote:

...
Like convincing you that I am right?

I doubt it.
One of the things I care about is being as versatile as possible. My background is in physics and engineering but I have
never felt limiting oneself to one field of study or one single viewpoint is enough, one must strive for as good
understanding of as many aspects of human life as one is capable of. But in the process I becomes more and more aware of my limitations, and I little hope of understanding everything. ;-)

But I really don't set so much store in achievments, for me it is the trying that counts.

Well, it doesn't matter who is "right". As you mentioned earlier, the exchange of ideas can be mutually rewarding. So the reason I am still responding is that I am trying to understand your viewpoint better.

I think that I get your standpoint a little better now. You are saying that trying is more important than actual achievements, and that as you learn more about something, you feel that you have limitations. So if I understand you correctly, I think that's a good viewpoint to have, because you are still putting importance on trying your best.

I think that my viewpoint is similar in that I think that effort is very important. I guess that I just hold on to the hope that all things are possible. It motivates me to some degree.

Helel wrote:

I have many controversial views but this is not one of them. I would have thought that the quotes ( slightly altered ;-)

)
in my signature would have set you on the right track for this one...

(EDIT: That is, I have this view, it is just not controversial.)

I will see if i can find some better authority than me... Yes this will do...
The following is quotes from Alan W. Watts:

"if decision itself were voluntary, every decision would have to be preceded by a decision to decide -- an infinite regression which fortunately does not occur.

"We are free to decide because decision 'happens'. We just decide without having the faintest understanding of how we do it.
In fact it is neither voluntary nor involuntary."

"For a decision -- the freest of my actions -- just happens like hiccups inside me or a bird singing outside me."

I don't know if these viewpoints are as universal as you say. I do not feel like my power to decide things is an illusion. I don't think that anybody can be certain of how decisions fundamentally work. I feel like I have control over my decisions. It's possible that my feeling is an illusion, but it's just speculation, I think.

Violence · **#46**

I still don't find that very easy to believe, John. Even taking players in the US like Jie Li, Andy Liu, Thomas Hsiang, Eric Lui, people who don't dedicate their lives to the game, or play full-time, I don't see them needing more than 3 stones against even the strongest of professionals. You really think they'd have difficulty with 4 stones? I can't see that happening either.

Violence · **#47**

Er, I'm sorry... I never really considered Robert Jasiek as a top western amateur... if that's who you're referring to...

CarlJung · **#48**

Helel wrote:

SoDesuNe wrote:

Interesting question for me: What do you think, why people fail in achieving goals?

...

2.
Because they have goals.

Suppose I set a goal to run 10km in 45 minutes and fail. The failure would be caused by me setting a goal in the first place, not that I ran too slow? How convenient.

kirkmc · **#49**

CarlJung wrote:

Helel wrote:

SoDesuNe wrote:

Interesting question for me: What do you think, why people fail in achieving goals?

...

2.
Because they have goals.

Suppose I set a goal to run 10km in 45 minutes and fail. The failure would be caused by me setting a goal in the first place, not that I ran too slow? How convenient.

QFT.

Kirby · **#50**

Helel wrote:

I also think that the standards one sets for oneself has to be higher than the standards one has for other people.
I you can live up to your standards this means they are to low, and if you expect anything at all from others this
is probably expecting to much. Since everyone else is living up to this set of stadards but you fail, this will give
what I think is a proper mindset. When people talk about finding guilty ones to punish I think they first and foremost
should start by looking in the mirror.

Everyone has to be their own fiercest judge, because we really are not competent enough to judge anyone else.

(This does not stop me entirely, but that is a moral flaw of mine. :twisted:

)

That's fine, and it seems like a good philosophy to have. To be clear, though, I was not trying to judge anybody. I was trying to share my perspective on the importance of hard work, and that I think that it can bring about good results.

Helel wrote:

What I was trying to say is that the belief in a nonexistence of free will has old traditions and isn't as ideosyncratic
as some of my other beliefs.

The statements really isn't meant to express empirical truths, think of them as "spiritual truths".
But if you don't like the "eastern wisdom", I will try some "western logic"

Your mind is implemented in the physical universe, not any part of it is outside this universe. All that makes you you
is made up of parts obeying physical laws, it is all a matter of cause and effect. Because of deterministic chaos
there is infinite sensitivity on initial values, and in the bottom we have the true stochastic nature of quantum mechanics,
so there may be a random element but nowhere is any free will to be found.

It's an interesting thought. It's one possibility. I think that the idea of "free will" has been debated for quite awhile. It's hard to say for sure if "free will" exists. I typically live under the context of assuming that it does, but my actions could very well be the result of the natural flow of the universe, yes... Although, I still feel that a good result is more likely to occur if I make an attempt to make good decisions. I'm pretty sure that I could walk out in front of a car and kill myself, but I want to refrain from contemplating it.

Solomon · **#51**

Kirby wrote:

I'm pretty sure that I could walk out in front of a car and kill myself, but I want to refrain from contemplating it.

You ever notice how when you're on top of a building or somewhere that's really high, you get that split-second gut-wrenching impulse to jump? I wonder if free will plays a role in that.

uglyboxer · **#52**

Araban wrote:

You ever notice how when you're on top of a building or somewhere that's really high, you get that split-second gut-wrenching impulse to jump? I wonder if free will plays a role in that.

Glad I'm not the only one. Yeesh.

Kirby · **#53**

uglyboxer wrote:

Araban wrote:

You ever notice how when you're on top of a building or somewhere that's really high, you get that split-second gut-wrenching impulse to jump? I wonder if free will plays a role in that.

Glad I'm not the only one. Yeesh.

Maybe it's an attribute of go players

Bill Spight · **#54**

Kirby wrote:

uglyboxer wrote:

Araban wrote:

You ever notice how when you're on top of a building or somewhere that's really high, you get that split-second gut-wrenching impulse to jump? I wonder if free will plays a role in that.

Glad I'm not the only one. Yeesh.

Maybe it's an attribute of go players

Always thinking about life and death, eh?

Chew Terr · **#55**

Araban wrote:

You ever notice how when you're on top of a building or somewhere that's really high, you get that split-second gut-wrenching impulse to jump? I wonder if free will plays a role in that.

Careful, the two-point jump and larger are not safe.

mdobbins · **#56**

Chew Terr wrote:

Araban wrote:

You ever notice how when you're on top of a building or somewhere that's really high, you get that split-second gut-wrenching impulse to jump? I wonder if free will plays a role in that.

Careful, the two-point jump and larger are not safe.

but the 2 building jump is ....

CarlJung · **#57**

Araban wrote:

Kirby wrote:

I'm pretty sure that I could walk out in front of a car and kill myself, but I want to refrain from contemplating it.

You ever notice how when you're on top of a building or somewhere that's really high, you get that split-second gut-wrenching impulse to jump?

I know a lot of people get that feeling. Same with pushing people out in a busy street. But I don't. Not the slightest. Don't know what conclusions one can draw either way though.

tchan001 · **#58**

dfan wrote:

I bet all of these characteristics are true of 1-dan pros as well.

It would probably take an actual professional to tell us what really distinguishes 9ps from 5ps or 1ps.

There is a new Chinese book written by Kong Jie where he explains 13 of his own games from recent international tournaments which he had won in 2009 and 2010. I would definitely think that this author qualifies to offer some insights on what makes a 9p a 9p. Of course you would need to read Chinese to get the most from the book.

You can read about the new book on my blog here.

This book is currently so new it's not listed on dangdang or amazon.cn yet.

Marcus · **#59**

tchan001 wrote:

dfan wrote:

I bet all of these characteristics are true of 1-dan pros as well.

It would probably take an actual professional to tell us what really distinguishes 9ps from 5ps or 1ps.

There is a new Chinese book written by Kong Jie where he explains 13 of his own games from recent international tournaments which he had won in 2009 and 2010. I would definitely think that this author qualifies to offer some insights on what makes a 9p a 9p. Of course you would need to read Chinese to get the most from the book.

You can read about the new book on my blog here.

This book is currently so new it's not listed on dangdang or amazon.cn yet.

I would love to see this book. Unfortunately, I don't read chinese.

Also, I still have no budget. :mrgreen:

tapir · **#60**

For an update on the pro vs. ama stories please read this: http://www.361points.com/blog/tag/shusaku-cup/ (about European top amateurs playing and most of them losing on three stones to strong professionals, Ilya on two stones, Pal winning with three stones. However the games were not paid and published games, so the pros may be even stronger in another setting.)

I sometimes get the impression that there are players in the west who might have the right mindset to get very strong, playing honest moves etc. but being teached by their overplaying fellow amateurs they go to rely on greedy go, trick moves, prepared joseki, half knowledge and all those shortcuts and end up somewhere on the way. This is just an impression though.

What makes them 9-dan?

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