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 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #421 Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 3:51 am 
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After some deliberation... I think we win this game.

There is no way to capture our stones.

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 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #422 Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 4:08 am 
Tengen
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schilds wrote:
To topazg:
White p18 instead of o18?


My first response would be this, but maybe Black can White can afford a different :w8: to go after Black's top group. Certainly P18 feels a bit better to me than Joaz' suggestion.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . 6 7 . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O X . O O X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X 5 4 2 . X O 9 . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O 1 3 X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X O O O O 8 . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O . . 0 . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . 3 O X . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O X 1 O O X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X X O O 2 X C X . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X O O O O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O . . O . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #423 Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 5:14 am 
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Observers only.
Joaz Banbeck wrote:
It continues like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . 5 . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O X . O O X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X . 4 2 . X C 7 . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O 1 3 X X a . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X O O O O 6 . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X 9 0 . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O . 8 . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


...and black has two liberties while all the surrounding groups have 3+ liberties. Black dies in a ladder or a crane's nest.

So, given that liberties are important, why not 7 at a? Or even (6 at 1)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O X . O O X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X 5 3 2 . X O . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O 1 4 X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X O O O O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O . . 7 , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #424 Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 6:57 am 
Tengen
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strictly for observers only
many people including elders are missing some simple retaliation by black and drawing this picture.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Second variation on move 5
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . X . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O X . O O X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X . O O . X . X . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X O O O O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X 2 3 . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O 8 1 4 6 . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O . . 9 , 5 7 . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


if black answer marked stone as below then this picture will not work and have to use net.
which will result in 3 liberty. this will make this one way street and whole lot easier to read next variaton. :)

am i mission something???
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Second variation on move 5
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . X . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O X . O O X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X . O O . X O . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X B . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X O O O O W . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X 2 3 8 |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O . 1 4 6 . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O . . . , 5 7 . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


edit:
disregard everything i said above..
i must be really tired not to see what is wrong with my argument!

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 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #425 Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 9:53 am 
Gosei
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Observers only: (well I guess Violence, too)
I got nothin' but I didn't want to get left out on the trend... ;)

Well, ok. I foresee one of these two outcomes:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc 98B W46 B50
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . 3 . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O X . O O X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X . 2 W . X O . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X 1 X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X O O O O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc 98B W46 B50
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O X . O O X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X 3 1 W . X O . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X 2 X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X O O O O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X 5 . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I'm not quite sure which is better for us, either way white is looking a little dead all over the top right...

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 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #426 Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 10:11 am 
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topazg wrote:
EDIT: Restructure as was getting long and messy

To Shaddy and observers:

In your last diagram, I still read White ahead, as follows:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . 6 . 3 . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . X O X 1 4 . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . X 2 O O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X . X O O O X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X X O O X X . X . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X O O O O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X 5 . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O 7 . O . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Is there something that doesn't work about this for White?


My alternative idea

However, I quite like this:

Line A

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . 9 5 8 . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . 7 O 3 6 . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . X . 4 O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X . X 2 O O X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X X O O 1 X . X . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X O O O O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O . . O . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Line B

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . 6 5 8 . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . 7 O 3 9 . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . X . 4 O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X . X 2 O O X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X X O O 1 X . X . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X O O O O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O . . O . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc a and b are miai?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . b O 4 . a 1 O 3 O . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . X O X X . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . X 2 O O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X . X O O O X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X X O O X X . X . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X O O O O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O . . O . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Line C

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . 9 5 . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . 7 6 O 3 8 . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . X . 4 O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X . X 2 O O X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X X O O 1 X . X . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X O O O O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O . . O . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


White looks a liberty behind in all of these... for example, on the first one:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . X X O . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . X O 3 O 4 . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . X 2 O O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X . X O O O X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X X O O X X . X . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X O O O O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O 1 . O . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . X X O . 6 . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . X O 3 O 1 4 . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . X 2 O O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X . X O O O X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X X O O X X . X . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X O O O O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O 5 . O . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Can White resist this ?


Full sequence from current position:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . 6 . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . 7 . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X . X . O O X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X 5 4 2 . X O 9 . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O 1 3 X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X O O O O 8 . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O . . 0 . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . 5 . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . O 3 . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . X . 4 O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X . X 2 O O X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X X O O 1 X . X . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X O O O O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O . . O . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Obs.
Your sequence is a transposition of mine. Black will o19 instead of 2.

Edit. In fact, I believe your sequence doesn't work,
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc a and b are miai?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . b O 4 . a 1 O 3 O . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . X O X X . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . X 2 O O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X . X O O O X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X X O O X X . X . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X O O O O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O . . O . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White will fill a liberty on the black group here and sacrifice the top group.

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 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #427 Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 10:27 am 
Tengen
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Yeah, transposition is kinda obvious - whoops!

I'm not sure if capturing the White top left group can be classified as a failure. To begin with, the whole top right apart from the corner was sort of "running fight dame" ish, so losing a 25 point group and having the top right as dame is kind of painful for White, no?

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 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #428 Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 10:48 am 
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If white loses that top left group and captures black's stones, then the right side is huge and he's ahead. Black doesn't have a ton of territory.

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 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #429 Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 12:39 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc 99A W46 B50
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O X . O O X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X B X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X O O O O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This is an interesting opportunity to practice evaluation: I interpret our last move to have been made with one of the following two continuations in mind, but which one?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc b5 connects
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O X . O O X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X . . O 4 X W 3 . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X 1 X X 2 . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X O O O O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X 6 . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O . . 7 , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc w4 connects
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O X . O O X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X 3 1 O . X O . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X 2 X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X O O O O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I can't read either continuation further than that. In the first option white's Q13 group is left weak, which benefits our P12 group, but there is a kyu-resistant fog of war in the top. In the second our top group seems to gain an iota of security but the Q13 group gains precious liberties relative to the P12 group, rendering the latter very 'eavy, very 'eak.

I'll just go with the crazier option.

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 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #430 Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 1:06 pm 
Gosei
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Approved.
...Although in Gresil's diagram, :w2: - :b5: are both bad exchanges for white and won't be played. (see the diagram in my last post for my expected continuation)

I'm not sure which of the two possible moves is better. I considered changing this just in case Violence wants the other one (since he can change my change cheaper than he can change Gresil's original move), but mathematically me doing nothing is slightly better. On average me doing nothing loses 2 points, but me changing it loses 2.5 points.

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Post #431 Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 1:12 pm 
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Approved.

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 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #432 Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 1:14 pm 
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Whoa, blitz.

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Post #433 Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 1:21 pm 
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Approved.


This post by Violence was liked by: Joaz Banbeck
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 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #434 Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 1:28 pm 
Gosei
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc 100A W46 B50
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O X . O O X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X . W O . X O . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X O O O O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Okay, the last move chosen by my team emphasizes saving these stones, which I had intended to sacrifice. If we don't connect them now, the stones are sacrificed without compensation. So, we connect here, and try to live above, I think? Sorry, I'm feeling very lost and out of my depth in this game.

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 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #435 Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 3:14 pm 
Judan
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I approve.

Chew Terr wrote:
...I'm feeling very lost and out of my depth in this game.


Me too.

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Post #436 Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 3:35 pm 
Gosei
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Joaz Banbeck wrote:
I approve.

Chew Terr wrote:
...I'm feeling very lost and out of my depth in this game.


Me too.


That helps a lot, somehow. Thanks. =)

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Post #437 Posted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 5:15 pm 
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I can't see any way out of this for white... this is looking good for us.

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Post #438 Posted: Fri Dec 24, 2010 12:01 am 
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Approved

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Post #439 Posted: Sun Dec 26, 2010 4:19 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc 101A W46 B50
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . B . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O X . O O X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X . O O . X O . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X O O O O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . 5 . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . 1 2 . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O X 4 O O X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X 3 O O . X O . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X O O O O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I also considered S13 because a white play there looks like it may capture five black stones, but I can't determine whether white has enough liberties.

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 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #440 Posted: Sun Dec 26, 2010 8:57 am 
Judan
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To observers ( and Shapenaji ):
I don't think that works for black.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc After 2, white has both a and b
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . 1 . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O X . O O X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X . O O . X O a . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X O O O O 2 . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O . . b . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The net is weird, but it eventually works for white in all lines that I can find.

Black's best try to get out of the net is the badly-shaped 5. Any other attempt dies quickly.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . 1 . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O X . O O X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X . O O . X O . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X 3 . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X O O O O 2 . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O 5 . 4 . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O . . 6 . . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . X . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O X . O O X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X . O O . X O . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X O O O O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X 5 O . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O 2 1 O 3 . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . 4 6 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


There are too many branches to show here. Some look like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . X . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O X . O O X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X . O O . X O . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X O O O O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X 5 6 . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X O 3 . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O X O O X 1 4 . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

...or like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . X . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O X . O O X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X . O O . X O . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X O O O O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X O 4 . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O X O O X 1 3 . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O 2 5 . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . . 6 . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Maybe the big brothers will be groggy enough from Christmas feasting to not notice.:)

_________________
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