A question to "Direction of Play"- and Opening-Principles

Nagilum · #1

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Considering the Direction of play: Where is the better move for black, "a" or "b" ? $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Hi, recently a similar position has arised in one of my games. Black to play. In the game i played on "a", but a three-dan has advised me to play at "b" because the group in the lower right is already stable. (Supposing that i wanted to play in the lower right) I know the principle "Play away from (your own) strength, but i also know the principle "Make your stones work together." In a position like this, i am not sure if my interpretation of these principles are correct, because it seems to me that they create sometimes a conflict in my thinking. Or is the choice of "a" or "b" in the end a matter of style?
At the moment i think that i can interpret a move on "b" also a large-scale cut between the lower and upper left side. That seems a positive fact, but on the other hand i haven't big territory prospects after that. Sometimes i have similar questions when i ask myself how to use a wall correctly in the opening phase, like in this example, White to play:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Considering the Direction of play: Where is the better move for white, "a" or "b" ? $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O X . O . . . . . a . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Again, i could not make a clear decision. "Force the opponent towards your strength" vs "Make your stones work together". I think i would play 'a', because a black play in this area would prevent a good use of the wall, at least in my judgement.

I am not sure if it is good to compare these two examples, but they produce a similar conflict in my thinking. :-?

So, what do you think?
Thanks for your advice.

amnal · #2

Nagilum wrote:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Considering the Direction of play: Where is the better move for black, "a" or "b" ? $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Hi, recently a similar position has arised in one of my games. Black to play. In the game i played on "a", but a three-dan has advised me to play at "b" because the group in the lower right is already stable. (Supposing that i wanted to play in the lower right) I know the principle "Play away from (your own) strength, but i also know the principle "Make your stones work together." In a position like this, i am not sure if my interpretation of these principles are correct, because it seems to me that they create sometimes a conflict in my thinking. Or is the choice of "a" or "b" in the end a matter of style?
At the moment i think that i can interpret a move on "b" also a large-scale cut between the lower and upper left side. That seems a positive fact, but on the other hand i haven't big territory prospects after that. Sometimes i have similar questions when i ask myself how to use a wall correctly in the opening phase,

Here, a is fine. b is less normal locally, because a does work quite well with the lower right.

However, the position is far more complex than that. Black's bottom right position is certainly very strong; he can tenuki many times and white cannot kill it. This gives it a very low priority. He can develop it with your move at a, but if the board is fairly empty is is very possible (perhaps probable) that he will find it more interesting to play somewhere else altogether. The move at b might work well with a different position later.

I did a bit of database fiddling. It looks like a is far more common in the context of the bottom side only, but this is sligthly misleading. Your position is bad for white because he has invaded the chinese fuseki too early and been attacked into having no territory there. This hasn't ever happened in the GoGoD database because a pro would not play this way (or, actually, there is one game where white invades but this is an amateur 3d playing an amateur 5d, presumably not knowing better).

Looking at a similar position without the chinese fuseki:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ More realistic position. $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

This position is a little more common (although the top left is not a common joseki in this position). Now there are games with black white playing a straight away but, in keeping with my above comments, he finds it more interesting to approach the bottom right generally. Similar results are found if the bottom right is a 4-4 point instead. There is even a game where white plays b.

Above anything else, I'm sure it is safe to say that this kind of decision will not be the game losing move

Quote:

like in this example, White to play:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Considering the Direction of play: Where is the better move for white, "a" or "b" ? $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O X . O . . c . . a . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Again, i could not make a clear decision. "Force the opponent towards your strength" vs "Make your stones work together". I think i would play 'a', because a black play in this area would prevent a good use of the wall, at least in my judgement.

I am not sure if it is good to compare these two examples, but they produce a similar conflict in my thinking. :-?

So, what do you think?
Thanks for your advice.

Here, white's shape gives him many options. He can play b, if he wants to develop that side somehow, but a is also fine. If he just wants to settle, c is another option. Both plans are good here (though be careful with pushing your opponent towards your 'thickness', white may be vulnerable to attack later). I don't think there is a clear advantage to a or b here.

I say this in the context of the top side of the board only. In the exact board position you have suggested, b is a little more than twice as common as a, but this will be very dependent on where the bottom two (or more) stones are placed. Both moves are clearly fine.

Bill Spight · #3

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Considering the Direction of play: Where is the better move for black, "a" or "b" ? $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . B . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

I lean very slightly towards "b". However, :bc:

is high, which makes a framework on the bottom side attractive. As amnal points out, this kind of once in a game choice is hardly likely to be crucial.

I think that "c" is ever better, aiming at a huge framework spanning the top and right sides.

But in real life, :b1:

is my choice.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Considering the Direction of play: Where is the better move for white, "a" or "b" ? $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O X . O . . . . . a . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Here I think that the difference is clearer in favor of "b". There is less to develop on the top side.

Again, I think that the wedge, :w1:

, is superior.

Joaz Banbeck · #4

Thanks to OP for posing an interesting question.

Before offering my opinion - which disagrees with all others so far :-?

- I'd like to note something that I have observed at the strong amateur level: There seems to be a preference for disruptive side-taking over constructive side-taking.
That is, given a board as below, most strong amateurs seem to prefer 'a' to 'b' or 'c':

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . a , . . . . . , . . . . . , b . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . c . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

However, according to my reading of Yang and Kajiwara, all three should be of the same value. ( Maybe I am missing something here. It has happened before. :sad:

)

Anyway, given this understanding, 'a' or nearby, and 'b' or nearby should be of equal strength. Except in this particular position the presence of the circled black stone makes 'b' a bit stronger:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . b . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . a , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

So I would choose 'b'.

amnal · #5

Joaz Banbeck wrote:

Thanks to OP for posing an interesting question.

Before offering my opinion - which disagrees with all others so far :-?

- I'd like to note something that I have observed at the strong amateur level: There seems to be a preference for disruptive side-taking over constructive side-taking.
That is, given a board as below, most strong amateurs seem to prefer 'a' to 'b' or 'c':

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . a , . . . . . , . . . . . , b . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . c . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

However, according to my reading of Yang and Kajiwara, all three should be of the same value. ( Maybe I am missing something here. It has happened before. :sad:

)

I think all three of those are arguably of similar value. In professional play, however, this appears to be a similarly low value. In 97.5% of the GoGod database games, black plays a (2076 plays), b (1041 plays) or c (147 plays) in the following diagram:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . b . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

a and b are both easy, well known shapes to make. c appears to be the obvious special tactic if a or b is too boring. A range of other moves have appeared, but no more than about 20 times for the most popular.

Quote:

Anyway, given this understanding, 'a' or nearby, and 'b' or nearby should be of equal strength. Except in this particular position the presence of the circled black stone makes 'b' a bit stronger:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . b . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . a , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

So I would choose 'b'.

It isn't clear to me why your a and b are obvious moves to you, particularly over and above an approach to any of white's stones. a seems okay to me (though I don't think I'd play it), but b seems potentially overconcentrated with black's low stones once white invades the corner.

Joaz Banbeck · #6

amnal wrote:

...
It isn't clear to me why your a and b are obvious moves to you, particularly over and above an approach to any of white's stones...

Because 'a' and 'b' in the aforementioned diagram are what Yang ( in 'Fundamental Priciples of Go' ) calls 'second class moves', whereas an approach to a hoshi stone he labels a 'third class move'.

topazg · #7

Joaz Banbeck wrote:

amnal wrote:

...
It isn't clear to me why your a and b are obvious moves to you, particularly over and above an approach to any of white's stones...

Because 'a' and 'b' in the aforementioned diagram are what Yang ( in 'Fundamental Priciples of Go' ) calls 'second class moves', whereas an approach to a hoshi stone he labels a 'third class move'.

IIRC he also quite strongly caveats the allowability to play second class category moves in favour of first, and third in favour of second, if the whole board situation suits it. I think both the places you have recommended have value, and I also think the most of the 4 approaches have value as well.

The downside to approaching a hoshi is that it has a lot of versatility, so it has miai choises for responses, making it hard to make an approach stone particularly useful. When other areas of the board, such as the right/top-right development for black, have already changed the global situation, approach moves such as F17 have a different flavour and value to just "an approach to a hoshi stone".

I see a lot of value in your point, but I also see it as similar to "this joseki is slightly good for Black", when it is only treating it with regards to the single corner as opposed to global impact.

Magicwand · #8

Bill Spight wrote:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Considering the Direction of play: Where is the better move for black, "a" or "b" ? $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . B . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

I lean very slightly towards "b". However, :bc:

is high, which makes a framework on the bottom side attractive. As amnal points out, this kind of once in a game choice is hardly likely to be crucial.

I think that "c" is ever better, aiming at a huge framework spanning the top and right sides.

But in real life, :b1:

is my choice.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Considering the Direction of play: Where is the better move for white, "a" or "b" ? $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O X . O . . . . . a . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Here I think that the difference is clearer in favor of "b". There is less to develop on the top side.

Again, I think that the wedge, :w1:

, is superior.

in my opinion 1 and C are equally good on below position.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Considering the Direction of play: Where is the better move for black, "a" or "b" ? $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . B . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

but below diag i lean towards 'a' rather than 1.
i feel that 1 is a weaker than 'a' because a will demand answer 'b' and still maintain the control.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Considering the Direction of play: Where is the better move for white, "a" or "b" ? $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O X . O . . . . . a . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Kirby · #9

Magicwand wrote:

...

but below diag i lean towards 'a' rather than 1.
i feel that 1 is a weaker than 'a' because a will demand answer 'b' and still maintain the control.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Considering the Direction of play: Where is the better move for white, "a" or "b" ? $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O X . O . . . . . a . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Bill seems to prefer "b" to "a", since he says that the top is not so developable. Does this mean that you believe that the top is developable?

Magicwand · **#10**

Kirby wrote:

Magicwand wrote:

...

but below diag i lean towards 'a' rather than 1.
i feel that 1 is a weaker than 'a' because a will demand answer 'b' and still maintain the control.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Considering the Direction of play: Where is the better move for white, "a" or "b" ? $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O X . O . . . . . a . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Bill seems to prefer "b" to "a", since he says that the top is not so developable. Does this mean that you believe that the top is developable?

if you are saying that "b" is better than "a" in above diag then it is wrong in theory.
"a" is correct direction in theory.
"b" will be incorrect direction in theory.
"1" is very good move but lacks the control and initiative. (i am not saying it is wrong.. some pros play such moves only and win)
if i have to compare a,b,c then a>1>b

Kirby · **#11**

Magicwand wrote:

...

if you are saying that "b" is better than "a" in above diag then it is wrong in theory.
"a" is correct direction in theory.
"b" will be incorrect direction in theory.
"1" is very good move but lacks the control and initiative. (i am not saying it is wrong.. some pros play such moves only and win)
if i have to compare a,b,c then a>1>b

My intuition is actually also "a", but if I read Bill's post correctly, he stated a reason for preferring "b" to "a": The top is not very developable. Therefore, I assumed my feeling about "a" was wrong.

I was wondering if there is a concrete reason that you like "a" better than "b" - since, if I understood Bill correctly, he is saying that the top is not developable so "b" is better than "a".

Could you explain why "a" is correct direction in theory?

Magicwand · **#12**

Kirby wrote:

Magicwand wrote:

...

if you are saying that "b" is better than "a" in above diag then it is wrong in theory.
"a" is correct direction in theory.
"b" will be incorrect direction in theory.
"1" is very good move but lacks the control and initiative. (i am not saying it is wrong.. some pros play such moves only and win)
if i have to compare a,b,c then a>1>b

My intuition is actually also "a", but if I read Bill's post correctly, he stated a reason for preferring "b" to "a": The top is not very developable. Therefore, I assumed my feeling about "a" was wrong.

I was wondering if there is a concrete reason that you like "a" better than "b" - since, if I understood Bill correctly, he is saying that the top is not developable so "b" is better than "a".

Could you explain why "a" is correct direction in theory?

first reason:
i have read many many professional comments during the time i studyed go.
i remember many comment about direction of the play and professionals commented 'a' is correct direction.

second reason:
i have played many many games and in smilar situations my feeling says that "a" is a better move than "b"

thired reason:
analysis
top is not developabe?? i dont understand. i think top can be big white territory with help of the "a" approach.

if black plays big knights move towards white influcence next move at "a" is practically sente that threatening white group.
so white answer at "2" ?? then black somewhat solidified the corner in sente and go to "3" which is the biggest move on the board.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O X . O . a 2 . 1 . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Harleqin · **#13**

When it is difficult to decide, I always tend to play in the most open
area on the board.

First example:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . c . . . b . . . a . . g . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . e . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . d , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . f . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

I would play one of 'a' to 'e', with a preference for 'a', because I would want to make the invasion at 'g' unattractive. I do not like the black stones on the right side as they stand now.

I would regard the lower right group as strong and not demanding
development more than the upper right hoshi.

Second example:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O X . O . . a . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , b . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Here, the question is whether the top left group needs to develop or
is strong enough by itself. It depends on my mood, but in the first
case, I would tend to 'a', while in the second case, 'b' or 'c' are
in the most open areas.

John Fairbairn · **#14**

There is a valuable proverb applicable to these situations: Approach on the widest side.

Two points should be made about this. One is that "wide" here strictly means wide in a strategic sense (lots of scope for plans or development) but in practice just counting the empty sapces is usually good enough. The second is that, like all proverbs, it is is not always true. However, whereas with some proverbs the right answer is the very opposite of what the proverb says, in this case even if there is a better move elsewhere, the move chosen by the proverb will very rarely be bad (for, I hope, fairly obvious reasons - being in an open space and all that).

Quote:

I'd like to note something that I have observed at the strong amateur level: There seems to be a preference for disruptive side-taking over constructive side-taking.

I'm glad somebody else (Joaz Banbeck) has made this very insightful point. I'm glad because whenever I make similar remarks I usually find that the response is extremely tetchy. Although it doesn't apply to this OP, I find that a large proportion of questioners don't want answers, they want praise. They usually begin "So, ..." and so I infer they are from young people brought up under a different school system from mine. I gather that, while it is now mercifully but slowly changing in the UK, there was a long period in which teachers were terrified to criticise pupils. Nothing was ever "wrong" - it was "a good effort". Nobody ever failed. We see the results not just in exam scores (universities here are now resorting to their own literacy and numeracy pre-entry tests) but also in attitudes. If you say to many younger people "You don't do that here, you do this because ...", they don't hear helpfulness; they hear criticism. That's very, very sad, not least because today's young people are obviously just as able as those of earlier generations.

Whilst the most recent style of teaching was of course designed with the best interests of children at heart, it seems to me that its ultimate weak point was that, by not correcting forcefully enough, it did not eradicate bad habits. In go I think this matters a lot. It is a game of much repetition and pattern recognition, a game where evaluation depends not so much on finite calculations but on assessments based on accumulated experience. In other words, if you acquire good habits. you do well. If you acquire bad habits, you do badly.

It's straying into the realms of wild speculation, but I wonder whether this is a major difference between go in east and west. Eastern go has more teachers who can teach good habits, of course, but they also have a culture where the old forcefully correct the young. At all events, I do think that more notice should be taken of points such as JB's, and of course older people should be less tempted to shrink from making them.

Gresil · **#15**

Quote:

I'd like to note something that I have observed at the strong amateur level: There seems to be a preference for disruptive side-taking over constructive side-taking.

I want to give this soup a stir:
Just a couple of weeks ago I saw some commentary on a classical game (probably in GoGoD) in which it was explicitly pointed out at one stage that white has been able to play at least once in each part of the board. I can't remember which game it was (I'll look for it when I get home), but the curious nature of the comment made an indelible impression on me, and I took it as commending a disruptive attitude in the opening.

tapir · **#16**

John Fairbairn wrote:

There is a valuable proverb applicable to these situations: Approach on the widest side.

Two points should be made about this. One is that "wide" here strictly means wide in a strategic sense (lots of scope for plans or development) but in practice just counting the empty sapces is usually good enough. The second is that, like all proverbs, it is is not always true. However, whereas with some proverbs the right answer is the very opposite of what the proverb says, in this case even if there is a better move elsewhere, the move chosen by the proverb will very rarely be bad (for, I hope, fairly obvious reasons - being in an open space and all that).

Quote:

I'd like to note something that I have observed at the strong amateur level: There seems to be a preference for disruptive side-taking over constructive side-taking.

I found myself surprised recently to read (forgot where) some problems where the solution was to approach in between the extension (at 11-3 in this cases) and the star point because there were some strength behind the 11-3 stone on the side and isolating this stone was considered better than approaching on the open side. That leads me to the point I like to made - those problems were presented once with 10-3 extension (solution was the open side approach) and once with 11-3 extension (solution was disruptive approach, because enough space for ideal extension available inside). Direction of play questions gain tremendously when presented that way - with slightly different positions leading to different directions. You can grasp a bit of the thought process behind the proverb, instead of blindly following it, that is.

John Fairbairn · **#17**

Quote:

Direction of play questions gain tremendously when presented that way - with slightly different positions leading to different directions.

I'm sure you're right, but there is possibly a more fundamental point to get right first. I translated the Direction of Play book, and so I have naturally followed its progress a little. I have noted that the concept has become one of the most popular among western players. It seems to me far more popular than its equivalent in Japanese books, and much more so than in Korean or Chinese books.

It is in fact something of a western construct. The Japanese refers to the direction of the stones. That's rather a different focus. I chose direction of play rather than stones as the result of a discussion with Stuart Dowsey, but our preference was frankly based more on what sounded right to the English ear than on what was accurate but clumsy. I have often wondered since then whether it was a mistaken approach. I think the actual text of the book makes it clear that the directionality of the existing stones on the board is the main factor, but (a) that might be a wrong assumption, and (b) it doesn't apply to those who hear and think they grasp the concept of direction of play but haven't read the book.

Maybe it's splitting hairs, but I think it might just be worth harping on about the directionality of stones rather than the direction of play. One of the problems with fuseki analysis is that there are many guidelines floating around untethered. Balance between fourth and third lines, approach on the widest side, access to the centre, keep the opponent separated, direction of play, etc, etc. Each one is easy enough to understand in itself, but the difficulty lies in creating some sort of hierarchy - to establish which guideline to use in preference to another when they both seem possible. My impression of Kajiwara's book was that he meant to establish part of this hierarchy by shifting focus away from the next move back to the previous moves. You analyse the directionality of the existing stones, and if they have any you act on it as a top priority. Only if there is no strong directionality do you then look elsewhere for guidelines such as "approach on the wider side". Of course, Kajiwara was too dogmatic for the taste of many, but surely the idea of establishing a hierarchy is a valuable one.

Using this idea of hierarchy with the concept of "disruption", or alternatively establishing a presence in many parts of the board, if I had a pupil who was talking about this sort of play, I'd want to be sure that he was first applying even more basic principles such as a maximum of five groups or a maximum of one weak group, or if he was claiming to keep the opponent separated, was he actually separating weak groups.

There are also macro principles at an even higher level, and I'd want to see evidence that these were understood, too. For example, there may seem to be little difference between invading his territory rather than defending your own, so that you both end up with small territories instead of both with large ones (especially to those of a mathematical bent who routinely give weight to thought process such as 61-60 is no different from 11-10). However, at what I'd regard as a higher level of thought, there are consierations of, say, risk. There may be an unacceptable risk in going first and giving your hand away in a more open and unpredictable position. Going first by invading/disrupting and settling the position (and of course ending in gote if all goes normally) may well give the opponent a big advantage now that the smoke and much of the unpredictability have cleared. (You can, of course, go up yet another level and say it all depends on time limits, but the principle is the same.)

All rules can be ignored, but it does seem wise to at least try them out first, and in a hierarchical order, in exactly the same way as physicians seem to worj when presented with an array of symptoms or doing triage.

To summarise, I am positing (not with huge confidence, though) that directionality of stones (analysis of existing positions) belongs on a higher level than what is usually understood by direction of play (development of future play), and so must come first. Further (harking back to my previous post), it would be ideal if all this happened in the right order as the result of forming good habits.

Kirby · **#18**

Magicwand wrote:

Kirby wrote:

Magicwand wrote:

...

if you are saying that "b" is better than "a" in above diag then it is wrong in theory.
"a" is correct direction in theory.
"b" will be incorrect direction in theory.
"1" is very good move but lacks the control and initiative. (i am not saying it is wrong.. some pros play such moves only and win)
if i have to compare a,b,c then a>1>b

My intuition is actually also "a", but if I read Bill's post correctly, he stated a reason for preferring "b" to "a": The top is not very developable. Therefore, I assumed my feeling about "a" was wrong.

I was wondering if there is a concrete reason that you like "a" better than "b" - since, if I understood Bill correctly, he is saying that the top is not developable so "b" is better than "a".

Could you explain why "a" is correct direction in theory?

first reason:
i have read many many professional comments during the time i studyed go.
i remember many comment about direction of the play and professionals commented 'a' is correct direction.

second reason:
i have played many many games and in smilar situations my feeling says that "a" is a better move than "b"

thired reason:
analysis
top is not developabe?? i dont understand. i think top can be big white territory with help of the "a" approach.

if black plays big knights move towards white influcence next move at "a" is practically sente that threatening white group.
so white answer at "2" ?? then black somewhat solidified the corner in sente and go to "3" which is the biggest move on the board.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O X . O . a 2 . 1 . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

This analysis makes sense to me. I wonder if Bill has a refutation (eg. Why isn't the top developable?).

For now, I'm inclined to think that approaching from the top side would be more useful than approaching from the right.

Kirby · **#19**

John Fairbairn wrote:

...

It's straying into the realms of wild speculation, but I wonder whether this is a major difference between go in east and west. Eastern go has more teachers who can teach good habits, of course, but they also have a culture where the old forcefully correct the young. At all events, I do think that more notice should be taken of points such as JB's, and of course older people should be less tempted to shrink from making them.

I am not sure if I am still considered a "young person" :-p, but I am inclined to believe that it is more beneficial to objectively weigh the content of what someone says than their age or experience... In that sense, I feel that old and young alike should not shrink from making statements - if they have reason for making them. Being objective, however, is somewhat difficult.

Bill Spight · **#20**

Kirby wrote:

My intuition is actually also "a", but if I read Bill's post correctly, he stated a reason for preferring "b" to "a": The top is not very developable. Therefore, I assumed my feeling about "a" was wrong.

I was wondering if there is a concrete reason that you like "a" better than "b" - since, if I understood Bill correctly, he is saying that the top is not developable so "b" is better than "a".

Let me be clearer about why I said that the top side is not very developable in the second example. First, White has already extended to the 8th file. Compare that with the other position, where Black has extended to the 6th file. Second, White has extended on the 3d line. In the other position, Black has extended on the 4th line. Third, Black can move with the single stone, or threaten to do so. In the other position, the Black group is secure and strong. There is simply not very much potential profit for White on the top side.

I think that this fits with what JF said about approaching from the wider side. (Although I opt for the wedge, instead of either approach.

)

A question to "Direction of Play"- and Opening-Principles

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