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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: 93: magicwand (4d) vs topazg (1d)
Post #101 Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 8:15 am 
Tengen
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . X O . . O O X X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . X O . . O X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X O . . X 3 O . X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . X X . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Oh well, that fixes some of my aji at least
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Offline Magicwand
 Post subject: Re: 93: magicwand (4d) vs topazg (1d)
Post #102 Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 9:44 am 
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KGS: magicwand
Tygem: magicwand
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DGS: magicwand
OGS: magicwand
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . X O . . O O X X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . X O . . O X . , . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . X O . . X X O . X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . X X . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


ok..i will go ahead with my sequence.. i didtnt use trigger to make sure he has option to tenuki.
although my exchange was not good one i wanted to make sure i secure my life.

_________________
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson
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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: 93: magicwand (4d) vs topazg (1d)
Post #103 Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 9:49 am 
Tengen
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Posts: 4511
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KGS: topazg
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . X O . . O O X X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . X O . . O X . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . X O . . X X O . X . . |
$$ | . 5 X O . . . . X X . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I can only tenuki if I don't care about that corner. White isn't completely happy up there yet, so I need to reserve my options up there. I'm tempted with the following:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm55 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 9 7 8 . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . X O . 0 O O X X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . X O . . O X . , . . . |
$$ | a 2 O . . . . . X O . . X X O . X . . |
$$ | . 1 X O . . . . X X . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | 3 O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . 4 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I haven't decided which "a" is bigger though. The top left one is almost sente, but I don't have two internal eyes, so I'll need to run out at some point anyway
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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: 93: magicwand (4d) vs topazg (1d)
Post #104 Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 9:56 am 
Tengen
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On second thoughts, I can connect with a useful push threat against that top left corner:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm55 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 9 . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . 5 O . . . . . X O . . O O X X . . . |
$$ | . X 7 O . O . . X O . . O X . , . . . |
$$ | 3 2 O 8 . . . . X O . . X X O . X . . |
$$ | . 1 X O . . . . X X . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


So, :w60: must be @ :b63: , which gives quite a reduction in sente. I'll have a good think about that

This post by topazg was liked by: hman
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Offline Magicwand
 Post subject: Re: 93: magicwand (4d) vs topazg (1d)
Post #105 Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 10:30 am 
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Rank: Wbaduk 7D
KGS: magicwand
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Wbaduk: rlatkfkd
DGS: magicwand
OGS: magicwand
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . X O . . O O X X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . X O . . O X . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . X O . . X X O . X . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . X X . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . 6 . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


this is about ladder that might happen later.
i dont think he will tenuki now.. but if i do later i will have problem.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . X O . . O O X X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . X O . . O X . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . X O . . X X O . X . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . X X . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . 9 X 3 2 . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . 7 4 1 . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . 8 6 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson


Last edited by Magicwand on Fri Jan 28, 2011 11:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Bill Spight
 Post subject: Re: 93: magicwand (4d) vs topazg (1d)
Post #106 Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 11:27 am 
Honinbo

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@ Magicwand

Please change the header of your diagram to $$Wcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 , since W plays first, not Black. :)

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Offline Magicwand
 Post subject: Re: 93: magicwand (4d) vs topazg (1d)
Post #107 Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 12:36 pm 
Tengen
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Bill Spight wrote:
@ Magicwand

Please change the header of your diagram to $$Wcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 , since W plays first, not Black. :)


thx. edited.
for obs:

i think i am ahead for now.. i am think of invasion in the bottom.
but i want to count again to see if i need to invade.

_________________
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson
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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: 93: magicwand (4d) vs topazg (1d)
Post #108 Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 2:59 pm 
Tengen
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Posts: 4511
Location: Chatteris, UK
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Was liked: 656
Rank: Nebulous
GD Posts: 918
KGS: topazg
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . X O . . O O X X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . X O . . O X . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . X O . . X X O . X . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . X X . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | 7 O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


E's after me group!! Need to connect after this, and definitely want to push if I get the chance. I only have one eye
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Offline Magicwand
 Post subject: Re: 93: magicwand (4d) vs topazg (1d)
Post #109 Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 3:18 pm 
Tengen
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Posts: 4844
Location: Mechanicsburg, PA
Liked others: 62
Was liked: 505
Rank: Wbaduk 7D
KGS: magicwand
Tygem: magicwand
Wbaduk: rlatkfkd
DGS: magicwand
OGS: magicwand
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . X O . . O O X X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . X O . . O X . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . X O . . X X O . X . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . X X . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . 8 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson
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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: 93: magicwand (4d) vs topazg (1d)
Post #110 Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 4:07 pm 
Tengen
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Posts: 4511
Location: Chatteris, UK
Liked others: 1589
Was liked: 656
Rank: Nebulous
GD Posts: 918
KGS: topazg
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . X O . . O O X X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . X O . . O X . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . X O . . X X O . X . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . X X . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Those two stones aren't so important, and he has some juicy targets up above, so I'm going for something completely different:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm59 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . X O . . O O X X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . X O . . O X . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . X O . . X X O . X . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . X X . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 1 . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X 2 O 3 . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | X O X 4 6 7 . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X 5 8 9 . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O O 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . b . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Now I aim at both "a" and "b"

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm59 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . X O . . O O X X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . X O . . O X . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . X O . . X X O . X . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . X X . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X 8 O 3 5 . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | X O X 6 4 7 . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This is fine too.
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Offline Magicwand
 Post subject: Re: 93: magicwand (4d) vs topazg (1d)
Post #111 Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 6:43 pm 
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Tygem: magicwand
Wbaduk: rlatkfkd
DGS: magicwand
OGS: magicwand
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . X O . . O O X X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . X O . . O X . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . X O . . X X O . X . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . X X . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . 0 . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Offline hyperpape
 Post subject: Re: 93: magicwand (4d) vs topazg (1d)
Post #112 Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 7:03 pm 
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You make that move and don't comment? I'm grumbling sooooo hard over here.
In all seriousness, I'm really interested to see the response. This is the kind of move that utterly dumbfounds me. I think that's not just a blindspot, and maybe other players around my rank would have the same issue.

I'm sure Topazg will have some interesting thoughts.

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Offline ketchup
 Post subject: Re: 93: magicwand (4d) vs topazg (1d)
Post #113 Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 7:41 pm 
Lives with ko
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For hyperpape/ Observers:
hyperpape wrote:
In all seriousness, I'm really interested to see the response. This is the kind of move that utterly dumbfounds me. I think that's not just a blindspot, and maybe other players around my rank would have the same issue.

I'm sure Topazg will have some interesting thoughts.


What do you think about this?
I won't say I understand it completely, but I will try to guess at it/ start it off. I think these types of moves are the best. I believe this is close to the correct idea. They are aiming for the aji at a, b , and c.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . X O . . O O X X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . X O . . O X . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . X O . . X X O . X . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . X X . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . c . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . a . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . 0 . X . . b . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


In the long run, black will have to make a choice on what he wants white to do. Either ways he picks, it should let white live, while hurting one of his own groups. The most interesting(my opinion) way to play here is probably the most aggressive way. I think without reading myself, I'd expect to see l3, or j3. Possibly something like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . X O . . O O X X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . X O . . O X . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . X O . . X X O . X . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . X X . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X 3 . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . 1 . O . X . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Offline Loons
 Post subject: Re: 93: magicwand (4d) vs topazg (1d)
Post #114 Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 8:31 pm 
Gosei
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Hyperpape (and ketchup I guess):

Magicwand looked at a line of a very normal move already; see his 'ladder breaker' post. If topazg chooses to try a large=scale kill on the stone, precisely what he chooses will lead to peculiar variations - as ketchup is indirectly pointing out.

My understanding is that insisting that this stone be dead gives Magicwand lots of forcing moves and/or aji. Playing in the middle of a three space extension is a common shape in circumstances various.

-Two bits from a two kyu.


Magicwand;

You've just counted, eh. I always have trouble counting meaningfully in this sort of early-middle-game. Could you critique my count (in my next hidden section)?


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . a a a . . . . . . . a a . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a a . . . . . . . a a a O O X . . |
$$ | . . O a a . . . X O . . O O X X b b b |
$$ | . X . O . O . . X O . . O X . , b b b |
$$ | . . O . . . . . X O . . X X O . X . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . X X . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | b b X O . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | b b X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O a a a |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X a a |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . a a a |
$$ | a a O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | a a . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | a a . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | a a O . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


White has about 30 points cash to black about 12. Black's moyo on the bottom is worth about 25 points uninvaded (not counting r3 area).

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Last edited by Loons on Fri Jan 28, 2011 9:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline hyperpape
 Post subject: Re: 93: magicwand (4d) vs topazg (1d)
Post #115 Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 8:47 pm 
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This is a normal invasion, but how it will play out seems very unpredictable to my mind. So I'm looking for ideas about which variations MW expects/hopes for/fears.

Thanks for noting that MW already talked about the ladder, but that just says one variation won't work. What will happen?

I guess I just need to be patient.

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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: 93: magicwand (4d) vs topazg (1d)
Post #116 Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 8:48 pm 
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IMHO, J3 is the wrong side.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . X O . . O O X X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . X O . . O X . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . X O . . X X O . X . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . X X . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , O b . |
$$ | X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . # . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . # . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . # . . . . . 1 . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . # . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
$${AR S4 O4 }[/go]

or

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . X O . . O O X X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . X O . . O X . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . X O . . X X O . X . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . X X . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , O b . |
$$ | X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . # . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . # . . 2 . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . # . . . . . 1 . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . # . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
$${AR S4 O4 }[/go]


MW has invaded his biggest territory, so Topazg has to fight. The left side is stronger, so Topazg should be pushing white from the east, westward toward his strength.
A nice side benefit from this is that when black gets solid in the lower right, moves like 'a' and 'b' begin to haunt white.

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Offline Marcus
 Post subject: Re: 93: magicwand (4d) vs topazg (1d)
Post #117 Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 8:50 pm 
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For hyperpape:
In addition to the notes above by Loons and ketchup, you might want to look up some commentary on Classic Kobayashi Fuseki:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c First 9 moves in a Classic Kobayashi Fuseki game
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . d . . . c . . . 9 . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . 7 . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 . a . . . b . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


To draw a parallel to the actual game, note how big the bottom area seems for Black (both in this example and in the actual game). This is one of the advantages to playing Classic Kobayashi opening as Black at SDK levels ... the bottom area feels very hard to invade, and if White is too timid it becomes extremely solid.

Once you've spent some time playing the opening and playing against it as well, you find that the critical points at a and b are really hard to handle.

At one point in time I was experimenting with Kobayashi as Black almost exclusively in my games. Because of the exposure, I learned a lot about how to attack and defend moyo areas like this. If you have a way to search game records, look for patterns where White makes an invasion at a or b (and I've sometimes seen reductions using moves at c or d after the bottom gets a bit more solid).
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Offline Magicwand
 Post subject: Re: 93: magicwand (4d) vs topazg (1d)
Post #118 Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 11:57 am 
Tengen
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i didnt say much about my invasion before so i will now.
on the board..it is very hard to predict who is ahead..( i think i am ahead few points but i might be wrong )
i tried to find simpliest way to win without any complication.

his answer "a" i already explained.
if he answer 'b' i think i will escape too easy.
if he answer 'c' which is strongest move he can answer,
it is complicated but i think i will be ok. (i will worry about next move after he plays it)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . X O . . O O X X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . X O . . O X . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . X O . . X X O . X . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . X X . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . a c . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . b . 0 . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


loon: your counting is very good and close to mine. but at this stage it is never accurate and meaningless.
i think i am thicker in the middle so i am ahead. his territory is all set and have no room for development. (only shrinkage)
but my middle have room for big development. :)

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Offline ketchup
 Post subject: Re: 93: magicwand (4d) vs topazg (1d)
Post #119 Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 12:14 pm 
Lives with ko
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Joaz Banbeck wrote:
IMHO, J3 is the wrong side.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . X O . . O O X X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . X O . . O X . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . X O . . X X O . X . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . X X . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , O b . |
$$ | X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . # . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . # . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . # . . . . . 1 . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . # . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
$${AR S4 O4 }[/go]

or

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . X O . . O O X X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . X O . . O X . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . X O . . X X O . X . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . X X . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , O b . |
$$ | X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . # . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . # . . 2 . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . # . . . . . 1 . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . # . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
$${AR S4 O4 }[/go]


MW has invaded his biggest territory, so Topazg has to fight. The left side is stronger, so Topazg should be pushing white from the east, westward toward his strength.
A nice side benefit from this is that when black gets solid in the lower right, moves like 'a' and 'b' begin to haunt white.


Joaz/observers:

The idea of fighting on your strong side is debatable here. As I see it, neither of the two groups are strong, but I do agree that there's a definite strength to push to the left side. For example, just as a stone advantage, it's 4v2. The problem I have is that MW can play this pretty lightly. As I see it, the moves you've pointed out still do not fix the inherent shape issues that exist. I think it's really easy to leave this stone alone, and just hit the other weaknesses. The issue I have is that I feel both a and b are still available with the moves you recommend. What I'm aiming for with a move at k3(sorry i accidentally said j3 before), is the direct fix to a, and the indirect fix to c. Can you clarify a bit more about why a move at n4 is more superior in terms of the overall game?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . X O . . O O X X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . X O . . O X . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . X O . . X X O . X . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . X X . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . c . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . a . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . O . X . . b . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


-edit-

Noticing magicwand's comment above as well, he seems to feel the same as Joaz, but I'm not too sure I understand why. He does not really mention anything in addition to it. I'm going to assume it's more of a feel thing for him then. Does anyone have any ideas?

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Offline Kirby
 Post subject: Re: 93: magicwand (4d) vs topazg (1d)
Post #120 Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 4:58 pm 
Honinbo

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KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
IMO, N4 is more severe against white than K3. K3 definitely fixes shape weaknesses, but it also lets white off easy in that not much immediate pressure is put on his stone. I cannot say that N4 is definitely better than K3, but I would be more apt to play N4 than K3 since K3 seems so passive.

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