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Offline cyclops
 Post subject: 4 LD's from 1001 L&D problems
Post #1 Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 11:05 am 
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Black to move: Find the first 5 moves of the main-variant that kills W unconditionally or in double ko. If there are more solutions find the most profitable or most simple one. I publish the ( book ) solutions after 10 days. Difficulty: sdk

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ +---------------------------+
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X O X O |
$$ | O O . . . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | O X O O O X . . . X O . X |
$$ | X X X X X X , . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . d . . . c X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . , . . , . . , X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X a . . . b . X X X |
$$ | . X O X . . , . X , X O O |
$$ | . . . O X X . . X . O O . |
$$ | O . O . O X . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . X X O . . |
$$ +---------------------------+[/go]


I'm interested in how you estimate the difficulty of each problem. So I look forward to reactions like:
b > a = d > c ( c is easiest ) or
b = 500 s, a = d = 100 s, d = 40 s. ( for this 7 kyu, s for seconds ) or
b = 4 k, a = d = 6k, d = 8k.

I recommend the book "One thousand and one Life-and-Death problems" by Richard Bozulich, Kiseido Publishing Company.
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Offline Mnemonic
 Post subject: Re: 4 LD's from 1001 L&D problems
Post #2 Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 11:35 am 
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Because I'm only a 10k I only looked at the easiest problem and after some time I think I found the solution.
It took me about 90 seconds and I'm pretty certain I wouldn't have seen it in a real game :-?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ +---------------------------+
$$ | . 5 1 O . . . . . X O X O |
$$ | O O 2 4 3 X . . . X O . . |
$$ | O X O O O X . . . X O . X |
$$ | X X X X X X , . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . d . . . c X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . , . . , . . , X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X a . . . b . X X X |
$$ | . X O X . . , . X , X O O |
$$ | . . . O X X . . X . O O . |
$$ | O . O . O X . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . X X O . . |
$$ +---------------------------+[/go]

I am probably closer to 9k than 10k and I found this problem challenging but doable so the estimate of 8k sounds reasonable

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Offline jts
 Post subject: Re: 4 LD's from 1001 L&D problems
Post #3 Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 11:59 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ +---------------------------+
$$ | . 4 1 O . . . . . X O X O |
$$ | O O 2 5 3 X . . . X O 3 5 |
$$ | O X O O O X . . . X O 4 X |
$$ | X X X X X X , . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . d . . . c X O O 2 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O 1 |
$$ | . . . , . . , . . , X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X a . . . b . X X X |
$$ | . X O X . . , . X , X O O |
$$ | . . . O X X . . X 3 O O . |
$$ | O 2 O . O X . . X O . 2 1 |
$$ | . 1 3 . O X . . X X O . . |
$$ +---------------------------+[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ +---------------------------+
$$ | . . 1 O . . . . . X O X O |
$$ | O O 3 . 2 X . . . X O 2 . |
$$ | O X O O O X . . . X O . X |
$$ | X X X X X X , . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . d . . . c X O O 3 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O 1 |
$$ | . . . , . . , . . , X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X a . . . b . X X X |
$$ | . X O X . . , . X , X O O |
$$ | . . 5 O X X . . X 2 O O . |
$$ | O . O 3 O X . . X O . 3 1 |
$$ | . 1 2 4 O X . . X X O . . |
$$ +---------------------------+[/go]


d= 1min, c= 1min (but then when doing the diagram I forgot the main line and spent 10 minutes trying to find a different solution...), b= 3 min, a=5 min
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Offline Dusk Eagle
 Post subject: Re: 4 LD's from 1001 L&D problems
Post #4 Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 3:02 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ +---------------------------+
$$ | . . 1 O . . . . . X O X O |
$$ | O O 3 . 2 X . . . X O 3 . |
$$ | O X O O O X . . . X O . X |
$$ | X X X X X X , . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O O 2 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O 1 |
$$ | . . . , . . , . . , X X X |
$$ | . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 X X . . . . . . X X X |
$$ | 8 X O X . . , . X , X O O |
$$ | . 2 4 O X X . . X 3 O O . |
$$ | O 9 O 3 O X . . X O . 2 1 |
$$ | . 5 1 . O X . . X X O . . |
$$ +---------------------------+[/go]

Assuming I got them all right, I think they're all around equal difficulty, about the range for me where it's pretty quick to solve them as problems but I might take a bit during the game, depending on how I was feeling. I suppose the bottom-left was the hardest, as I tried the most points before finding the right (?) one and white can resist a bit stronger than in the other corners.

Edit: Derp, I read out :w2: at :b5: in the lower left, but somehow misevaluated it. That was stupid of me.

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Last edited by Dusk Eagle on Thu Feb 17, 2011 3:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Offline Sverre
 Post subject: Re: 4 LD's from 1001 L&D problems
Post #5 Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 3:12 pm 
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cyclops wrote:
Black to move: Find the first 5 moves of the main-variant that kills W unconditionally or in double ko. If there are more solutions find the most profitable or most simple one. I publish the ( book ) solutions after 10 days. Difficulty: sdk

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ +---------------------------+
$$ | . 2 1 O 5 . . . . X O X O |
$$ | O O . 3 4 X . . . X O 4 3 |
$$ | O X O O O X . . . X O . X |
$$ | X X X X X X , . . X O . 2 |
$$ | . . . . d . . . c X O O 5 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O 1 |
$$ | . . . , . . , . . , X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X a . . . b . X X X |
$$ | . X O X . . , . X , X O O |
$$ | . 1 . O X X . . X 3 O O . |
$$ | O 2 O 5 O X . . X O 5 2 1 |
$$ | . 3 4 . O X . . X X O . 4 |
$$ +---------------------------+[/go]


c > a > d > b


@Dusk Eagle:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X X . . .
$$ | . X O X . . ,
$$ | . . . O X X .
$$ | O . O . O X .
$$ | . 2 1 . O X .
$$ +--------------[/go]


@jts
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Do you have a plan to refute this W 2?
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X X a . .
$$ | . X O X . . ,
$$ | . 2 . O X X .
$$ | O . O . O X .
$$ | . 1 . . O X .
$$ +--------------[/go]
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Offline jts
 Post subject: Re: 4 LD's from 1001 L&D problems
Post #6 Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 4:02 pm 
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@sverre: didn't see that! :roll:
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Offline hyperpape
 Post subject: Re: 4 LD's from 1001 L&D problems
Post #7 Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 4:21 pm 
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I was going to say
d<a< b < c
where spacing denotes how close they are in difficulty.

However, I uh...got d wrong :oops: . I got a and b right, at least if sverre is right. I could not solve c. I think the double ko bit was something of a hint.

I'm really awful at tsumego.

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Offline cyclops
 Post subject: Re: 4 LD's from 1001 L&D problems
Post #8 Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 7:08 pm 
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If you want to see the solutions: check Sverre. But they are not the only correct ones.
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Offline daal
 Post subject: Re: 4 LD's from 1001 L&D problems
Post #9 Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 3:25 am 
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My initial impression was:

b is the easiest, then d, then c then a.

b looks like a one move problem, and after :b1: I can't see a move for w:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ +---------------------------+
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X O X O |
$$ | O O . . . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | O X O O O X . . . X O . X |
$$ | X X X X X X , . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . d . . . c X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . , . . , . . , X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X a . . . b . X X X |
$$ | . X O X . . , . X , X O O |
$$ | . . . O X X . . X . O O . |
$$ | O . O . O X . . X O . 1 . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . X X O . . |
$$ +---------------------------+[/go]


d looks easy, because there don't seem to be many possibilities. However it is a shortage of liberties problem, and I would have missed my solution in a game. both :b1: and :b3: are forcing moves and after :b5: w can't connect:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ +---------------------------+
$$ | . 2 1 M 5 . . . . X O X O |
$$ | O O . 3 4 X . . . X O . . |
$$ | O X O O O X . . . X O . X |
$$ | X X X X X X , . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . d . . . c X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . , . . , . . , X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X a . . . b . X X X |
$$ | . X O X . . , . X , X O O |
$$ | . . . O X X . . X . O O . |
$$ | O . O . O X . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . X X O . . |
$$ +---------------------------+[/go]


c looked harder, but when I tried it, it was pretty easy. After seeing that the obvious move at m12 fails, I tried the hane at :b1: At first I though w could get a ko with :w2: and :w4: , but :b5: does away with that hope:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ +---------------------------+
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X O X M |
$$ | O O . . . X . . . X O . 5 |
$$ | O X O O O X . . . X O 4 X |
$$ | X X X X X X , . . X O . 2 |
$$ | . . . . d . . . c X O O 3 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O 1 |
$$ | . . . , . . , . . , X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X a . . . b . X X X |
$$ | . X O X . . , . X , X O O |
$$ | . . . O X X . . X . O O . |
$$ | O . O . O X . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . X X O . . |
$$ +---------------------------+[/go]


a looked difficult because kos seem to pop up everywhere, and although "a" looks like it can do something evil, I couldn't find a solution without ko.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ +---------------------------+
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X O X O |
$$ | O O . . . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | O X O O O X . . . X O . X |
$$ | X X X X X X , . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . d . . . c X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . , . . , . . , X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X a . . . b . X X X |
$$ | . X O X . . , . X , X O O |
$$ | . . . O X X . . X . O O . |
$$ | O . O . O X . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . a . O X . . X X O . . |
$$ +---------------------------+[/go]


So, after trying b is easier than c which is easier than d which is easier than a.

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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: 4 LD's from 1001 L&D problems
Post #10 Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 3:33 am 
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daal wrote:
My initial impression was:

b is the easiest, then d, then c then a.

b looks like a one move problem, and after :b1: I can't see a move for w:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ +---------------------------+
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X O X O |
$$ | O O . . . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | O X O O O X . . . X O . X |
$$ | X X X X X X , . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . d . . . c X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . , . . , . . , X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X a . . . b . X X X |
$$ | . X O X . . , . X , X O O |
$$ | . . . O X X . . X . O O . |
$$ | O . O . O X . . X O . 1 . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . X X O . . |
$$ +---------------------------+[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c "a" and "b" miai for White life?
$$ +---------------------------+
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X O X O |
$$ | O O . . . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | O X O O O X . . . X O . X |
$$ | X X X X X X , . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . d . . . c X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . , . . , . . , X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X a . . . b . X X X |
$$ | . X O X . . , . X , X O O |
$$ | . . . O X X . . X . O O . |
$$ | O . O . O X . . X O b 1 2 |
$$ | . . . . O X . . X X O a . |
$$ +---------------------------+[/go]
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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: 4 LD's from 1001 L&D problems
Post #11 Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 3:51 am 
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Sverre wrote:
@jts
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Do you have a plan to refute this W 2?
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X X a . .
$$ | . X O X . . ,
$$ | . 2 . O X X .
$$ | O . O . O X .
$$ | . 1 . . O X .
$$ +--------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ :w6: goes running, but the corner dies
$$ | . 6 . . . . .
$$ | . 4 X X a . .
$$ | 5 X O X . . ,
$$ | . 2 8 O X X .
$$ | O 9 O 7 O X .
$$ | . 1 3 . O X .
$$ +--------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ It all dies
$$ | . 7 . . . . .
$$ | 6 4 X X a . .
$$ | 5 X O X . . ,
$$ | 8 2 . O X X .
$$ | O . O 9 O X .
$$ | . 1 3 . O X .
$$ +--------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ It dies here too
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . 5 X X a . .
$$ | . X O X . . ,
$$ | . 2 . O X X .
$$ | O . O 4 O X .
$$ | . 1 3 . O X .
$$ +--------------[/go]


Does this work?

This post by topazg was liked by: Sverre
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Offline Sverre
 Post subject: Re: 4 LD's from 1001 L&D problems
Post #12 Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 4:06 am 
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topazg wrote:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ :w6: goes running, but the corner dies
$$ | . 6 . . . . .
$$ | . 4 X X a . .
$$ | 5 X O X . . ,
$$ | . 2 8 O X X .
$$ | O 9 O 7 O X .
$$ | . 1 3 . O X .
$$ +--------------[/go]


Does this work?


Yes, that seems to work. I hadn't read the continuation out beyond :b2: thoroughly.
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Offline cyclops
 Post subject: Re: 4 LD's from 1001 L&D problems
Post #13 Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 4:54 am 
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Sverre wrote:
topazg wrote:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ :w6: goes running, but the corner dies
$$ | . 6 . . . . .
$$ | . 4 X X a . .
$$ | 5 X O X . . ,
$$ | . 2 8 O X X .
$$ | O 9 O 7 O X .
$$ | . 1 3 . O X .
$$ +--------------[/go]


Does this work?


Yes, that seems to work. I hadn't read the continuation out beyond :b2: thoroughly.


I usually come up with the most complicated solution, so I have
In Topasz' last diagram: 3 @ 7. Does this work?
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Offline daal
 Post subject: Re: 4 LD's from 1001 L&D problems
Post #14 Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 4:55 am 
Oza
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topazg wrote:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c "a" and "b" miai for White life?
$$ +---------------------------+
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X O X O |
$$ | O O . . . X . . . X O . . |
$$ | O X O O O X . . . X O . X |
$$ | X X X X X X , . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . d . . . c X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . , . . , . . , X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X a . . . b . X X X |
$$ | . X O X . . , . X , X O O |
$$ | . . . O X X . . X . O O . |
$$ | O . O . O X . . X O b 1 2 |
$$ | . . . . O X . . X X O a . |
$$ +---------------------------+[/go]


I didn't see that "b" was a self atari :-?

I can't find anything that doesn't end in ko :o

I guess I have to revise my list:

a hardest, b ???, d hard, c manageable.

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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: 4 LD's from 1001 L&D problems
Post #15 Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 5:15 am 
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daal wrote:
I didn't see that "b" was a self atari :-?

I can't find anything that doesn't end in ko :o

I guess I have to revise my list:

a hardest, b ???, d hard, c manageable.


Spoiler hint about "b":

It is ko ... twice ;)


Full Spoiler about "b":

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c If :w4: @ :b5:, then :b5: @ :w4: kills
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X X X |
$$ | . . . , . . , . X , X O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X 3 O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X O 5 2 1 |
$$ | 6 . . . . . . . X X O . 4 |
$$ +---------------------------+[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X X X |
$$ | . . . , . . , . X , X O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X X O O . |
$$ | 4 5 . . . . . . X 2 7 O X |
$$ | O 1 . . . . . . X X O 3 6 |
$$ +---------------------------+[/go]


It's a double ko. It doesn't matter how many threats White creates, Black can just capture the other ko.
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Offline jts
 Post subject: Re: 4 LD's from 1001 L&D problems
Post #16 Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 8:37 am 
Oza
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topazg wrote:
Sverre wrote:
@jts
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Do you have a plan to refute this W 2?
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X X a . .
$$ | . X O X . . ,
$$ | . 2 . O X X .
$$ | O . O . O X .
$$ | . 1 . . O X .
$$ +--------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ :w6: goes running, but the corner dies
$$ | . 6 . . . . .
$$ | . 4 X X a . .
$$ | 5 X O X . . ,
$$ | . 2 8 O X X .
$$ | O 9 O 7 O X .
$$ | . 1 3 . O X .
$$ +--------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ It all dies
$$ | . 7 . . . . .
$$ | 6 4 X X a . .
$$ | 5 X O X . . ,
$$ | 8 2 . O X X .
$$ | O . O 9 O X .
$$ | . 1 3 . O X .
$$ +--------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ It dies here too
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . 5 X X a . .
$$ | . X O X . . ,
$$ | . 2 . O X X .
$$ | O . O 4 O X .
$$ | . 1 3 . O X .
$$ +--------------[/go]


Does this work?


Thanks for defending my honor! :mrgreen:

This post by jts was liked by: topazg
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Offline Tommie
 Post subject: Re: 4 LD's from 1001 L&D problems
Post #17 Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 9:51 am 
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cyclops wrote:
Black to move: Find the first 5 moves of the main-variant that kills W unconditionally or in double ko. If there are more solutions find the most profitable or most simple one. I publish the ( book ) solutions after 10 days. Difficulty: sdk

I'm interested in how you estimate the difficulty of each problem. So I look forward to reactions like:
b > a = d > c ( c is easiest ) or
b = 500 s, a = d = 100 s, d = 40 s. ( for this 7 kyu, s for seconds ) or
b = 4 k, a = d = 6k, d = 8k.
(...)


1s 5s 2s 10s
d < c < b < a
(whereas in a, I wanted to start with a2, but now, with hindsight, b3 is much cleaner)

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Greetings,
Tommie

3dan EGF (AGA no 13477) || Tommie on KGS: 'June'|| DGS: 'Zhi Laohu' 纸老虎 = 'paper tiger' || Senseis : http://senseis.xmp.net/?tderz ||
ENFP (MBTI) - 'Find your own style within the Fundamentals of Go! '
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Offline unkx80
 Post subject: Re: 4 LD's from 1001 L&D problems
Post #18 Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:52 am 
Lives with ko

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I found c the hardest, because I have seen all of the rest before. The first move in c took me a while to find.

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My homepages: http://senseis.xmp.net/?Unkx80 and http://yeefan.sg/.
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Offline cyclops
 Post subject: Re: 4 LD's from 1001 L&D problems
Post #19 Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 6:21 pm 
Lives in sente
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evaluation
together we find a and c the hardest, and d the easiest.
Why did I test you like this? Because I'm doing this book for the third time now. And everytime I get stuck at a. I focus at b1 as initial move and than it is too difficult to solve by head. For the other ones I developed a feeling from previous times. Even not blessed with unkx80's memory capacibilities.
So why no feeling for problem a. Because of the false solution, may be.
Why false? Because it gives white a sente move along the edge.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc 2@a,7@b: ko
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . 3 . . . . .
$$ | 5 a X X . . .
$$ | . X . X . . .
$$ | . 4 9 O X X .
$$ | O . O b O X .
$$ | . 1 6 8 O X .
$$ +---------------[/go]


above is not attractive for B so he plays

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc w gets 2 in for free
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . 2 X X . . .
$$ | . X O X . . .
$$ | . 3 . O X X .
$$ | O . O . O X .
$$ | . 1 . . O X .
$$ +---------------[/go]


Lesson learnt: stick to Kageyama's fundamentals: first try is to reduce eyespace. Helps also in problem c.
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