It is currently Tue May 06, 2025 4:11 pm

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 11 posts ] 
Author Message
Offline
 Post subject: Trouble making shape in large framework
Post #1 Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 3:49 pm 
Beginner

Posts: 6
Liked others: 1
Was liked: 0
Rank: KGS 3 kyu
KGS: Tangerine
I (white) played this game with fwiffo (black), another forum member. We would both appreciate any helpful comments.

Although I think I was doing well until I made a reading mistake that caused me to resign, I was not very happy with the amount of effort it took to make a stable shape in the center. He was very thick, but there was a lot of open space. Perhaps if I made better shape, I wouldn't have been pressed into a reading blunder.

Or maybe I let him have too much thickness early on, and I was too greedy considering that?

Thanks for taking a look!


Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Trouble making shape in large framework
Post #2 Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 3:57 pm 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 1435
Location: California
Liked others: 53
Was liked: 171
Rank: Out of practice
GD Posts: 1104
KGS: fwiffo
And as for my questions regarding this game... I prefer to play a territorial style, but often fail to do so and end up with a game like this with a bunch of influence early in the game and don't know what to do with it. I'm always feel like I'm doing it wrong... I felt unsatisfied with how I was using influence in this game, even though my blind squirrel eventually did find a nut.

_________________
KGS 4 kyu - Game Archive - Keyboard Otaku

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Trouble making shape in large framework
Post #3 Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 4:27 pm 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 1378
Location: wHam!lton, Aotearoa
Liked others: 253
Was liked: 105
Just my 2 bits:

I dislike your joseki choice at 14 on this board. I would jump (E14), into that family of joseki. Maybe if you don't like those joseki, a double approach variation seems perhaps better than diving into the corner directly.

Relatedly, there does not seem to be a well-functioning pincer for move 24. Black seems to get a satisfying result whatever happens.

At move 30, I think c7 is worth more to you dead than alive. If you simply jump out to f10, black is split on the left and the result seems ok for white. The result as played to 41 it appears black`s thickness is well superior.

Trivially, I think G18 is often G17 followed by black H16, white tenuki (though yours might be better or ok on the board). The game already seems hard for white. Also, O16 I think may not be so good a move when you really, really don`t want to take the corner - it feels like the two white stones are hurting eachother.

Fwiffo, I think you played quite a good game, though I have not looked past move 50 (our ranks are too close for me to really comment whatever fighting happens).

Edit: Fwiffo, you were too kind to white in the top right. Then you both made mistakes. I like the quote "In kyu games, it's not who made the most mistakes but who made the last mistake".

_________________
Revisiting Go - Study Journal
My Programming Blog - About the evolution of my go bot.


This post by Loons was liked by: fwiffo
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Trouble making shape in large framework
Post #4 Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 6:51 pm 
Lives in sente
User avatar

Posts: 1206
Liked others: 51
Was liked: 192
Rank: KGS 5d
KGS: Str1fe, Midorisuke
Some general statements first. Black is ridiculously thick in the center in this game- it will be hard for white to make shape, because the stones which need to do this have almost no shape to begin with. Also there's not much black around to get forcing moves off of, which is where a lot of shape comes from - exploiting your opponent's weaknesses rather than making yourself strong. You might think of white's situation as drowning in a lake- if black gently keeps him down, white is dead in the water, but if you try too hard you might end up giving him enough leverage to escape. I like black's result on the left in the beginning - seems too good, too much influence.

And a note that I forgot to put int the sgf: at move 89 or so, black should take the ponnuki instead of connecting two stones, because then he can jump into the bottom and ruin a lot of it.



This post by Shaddy was liked by: fwiffo
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Trouble making shape in large framework
Post #5 Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 8:29 pm 
Judan
User avatar

Posts: 5546
Location: Banbeck Vale
Liked others: 1104
Was liked: 1457
Rank: 1D AGA
GD Posts: 1512
Kaya handle: Test
With apologies to Shaddy, I disagree with some of his comments...

_________________
Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207


This post by Joaz Banbeck was liked by: fwiffo
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Trouble making shape in large framework
Post #6 Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 10:43 pm 
Beginner

Posts: 6
Liked others: 1
Was liked: 0
Rank: KGS 3 kyu
KGS: Tangerine
Thanks so much for all of your comments!

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Trouble making shape in large framework
Post #7 Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 10:54 pm 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 1758
Liked others: 378
Was liked: 375
Rank: 4d
I wanted to analyze the hane on the right side, but the variations were long so I ended up making an sgf, and then reviewing a bit of the game. Not sure how helpful my comments are here, but hopefully you can compare them with your own ideas and judge which is better.


Attachments:
Scircles-fwiffo-631796-20110223.sgf [2.08 KiB]
Downloaded 563 times
Scircles-fwiffo-631796-20110223.sgf [2.06 KiB]
Downloaded 382 times

_________________
We don't know who we are; we don't know where we are.
Each of us woke up one moment and here we were in the darkness.
We're nameless things with no memory; no knowledge of what went before,
No understanding of what is now, no knowledge of what will be.

This post by Dusk Eagle was liked by 2 people: Bill Spight, fwiffo
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Trouble making shape in large framework
Post #8 Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 12:46 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 10905
Liked others: 3651
Was liked: 3374
Some thoughts. :)


_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.


This post by Bill Spight was liked by 2 people: fwiffo, Tangerine
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Trouble making shape in large framework
Post #9 Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 7:33 am 
Lives in sente
User avatar

Posts: 1206
Liked others: 51
Was liked: 192
Rank: KGS 5d
KGS: Str1fe, Midorisuke
hmm, i shouldn't post comments when i'm dead tired. Joaz is right for the most part but I still believe hane is wrong there (and reading Bill's comment, he agrees)

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Trouble making shape in large framework
Post #10 Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 7:43 am 
Tengen
User avatar

Posts: 4844
Location: Mechanicsburg, PA
Liked others: 62
Was liked: 505
Rank: Wbaduk 7D
KGS: magicwand
Tygem: magicwand
Wbaduk: rlatkfkd
DGS: magicwand
OGS: magicwand
i also agree with shaddy and bill.
there is no reason to make that complicated because black will gain more than enough points by playing solid.

_________________
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"

Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Trouble making shape in large framework
Post #11 Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 8:41 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 10905
Liked others: 3651
Was liked: 3374
Magicwand wrote:
i also agree with shaddy and bill.
there is no reason to make that complicated because black will gain more than enough points by playing solid.


As DuskEagle's variations suggest, if White cuts Black cannot afford to atari from the top. :)

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 11 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group