Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$ A or B are fine
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . b . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Black to play. I think best moves are between A and B. I wonder if B might be better than to enclose the corner, because 1. it puts more influence "pressure" on white and 2. it's an ideal first step for later deeper invasions and reductions. I know that if you are a pro with skills that B isn't much of a danger, but I wonder if this perception is right for amateurs. Would good amateurs play B and develop fast instead of enclosing? Would be cool to hear some 3D+ opinion.

There is not a single example of this fuseki in the GoGoD database. That suggests that play has gone wrong somewhere. Also from the database, the move at fault appears to be White's side extension on the left. In the few examples of pro play up to that point, White invariably played at A instead.

This further suggests that Black has a White mistake he can expose. On the principle of my best play is my opponent's best play, Black A here can hardly be bad. Moreover, since bad shape punishes itself, Black has no need to rush to exploit White's bad shape on the left. Black B does glare at it, but it is too early to claim this would be precisely the best point to set up a command post in the centre. White's real mistake wasn't bad shape. It was wrong direction of play.

'b' looks pretty nice in this case. I would personally play this though:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 1 . . 5 . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . 3 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . @ , . . . . . b . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

'b' now looks uninteresting for white, and therefore also less interesting for black. Black 'a' would feel too low and boring to me anyway, because black still has many invasion points. Let white invade, then you can attack! The marked white stone feels too low, and black probably can invade later on anyway, so I'd say he has a pretty good game. But nothing is decided yet!

_________________
My name is Gijs, from Utrecht, NL.

When in doubt, play the most aggressive move

For reference

Played a few days ago (position at 15 is fairly similar. Some important difference in the lower left than impact the top left somewhat, but still shows Black values that lower right move quite highly with respect to the whole board):

[sgf-full](;
KM[6.5]
FF[4]
GM[1]
SZ[19]
EV[12th Maxim Cup]
RO[Semifinal]
DT[2011-02-21]
PB[Choi Cheolhan]
BR[9d]
PW[Park Yeonghun]
WR[9d]
RE[W+R]
SO[weiqi.sports.tom.com]
;B[pd];W[dd];B[pq];W[dq];B[qk];W[ck];B[gq];W[do];B[jp];W[nc];B[pf];W[pb];B[qc];W[kc]
;B[po];W[qq];B[qp];W[oq];B[qr];W[lp];B[lq];W[mq];B[kq];W[nn];B[ln];W[op];B[pn];W[ko]
;B[mo];W[mp];B[no];W[jo];B[jm];W[go];B[ld];W[lc];B[nd];W[kd];B[oc];W[nb];B[le];W[jf]
;B[fd];W[df];B[dc];W[cc];B[ec];W[cb];B[ic];W[id];B[hd];W[he];B[ie];W[jd];B[ce];W[de]
;B[gd];W[hf];B[jb];W[kj];B[lk];W[mi];B[ig];W[if];B[fr];W[hp];B[iq];W[jr];B[ir];W[hm]
;B[fm];W[hk];B[fo];W[nj];B[cm];W[ml];B[mk];W[nk];B[nl];W[pk];B[mm];W[ol];B[nm];W[fp]
;B[gn];W[eo];B[hn];W[fn];B[in];W[ip];B[kp];W[lr];B[kr];W[gm];B[io];W[hb];B[hc];W[er]
;B[il];W[dj];B[ci];W[cf];B[bk];W[bl];B[hl];W[gl];B[gk];W[fk];B[gj];W[fl];B[ik];W[kb]
;B[gb];W[hj];B[ij];W[hi];B[ii];W[qj];B[ql];W[qh];B[bj];W[cl];B[bh];W[bg];B[cg];W[dg]
;B[hh];W[gi];B[gh];W[fi];B[dh];W[ch];B[fh];W[jh];B[ei];W[fj];B[ih];W[di];B[cg];W[ks]
;B[jq];W[ch];B[rj];W[ri];B[cg];W[nr];B[np];W[ch];B[pj];W[qi];B[cg];W[rq];B[pr];W[ch]
;B[pl];W[ok];B[cg];W[pp];B[rr];W[ch];B[ob];W[eh];B[na];W[om];B[pm];W[rf];B[oh];W[oi]
;B[re];W[qf];B[rk];W[ma];B[oa];W[fq];B[gr];W[on];B[oo];W[kk];B[jg];W[kg];B[eg];W[im]
;B[kn];W[kl];B[ll];W[jl];B[ff];W[lo];B[jn];W[mn];B[lm];W[ef];B[dh];W[lj];B[nq];W[eh]
;B[fg];W[mr];B[or];W[dh];B[ph];W[pi])[/sgf-full]

personally i like tengent for black's next move.

also looking at the board position i prefer white over black if i had a choice. (given 6.5 komi)

just because no other professionals played it doesnt necessary mean there is a mistake.

usually fuseki is a preference that even many professionals have different opinion.


in my opinion if you have a reason to backup your move then it is a good move until there is a valid reason to dispute first reason.

_________________
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson

The game shot is just an example. The point is: May it be better to play pretty bold with tengen instead of an corner enclosure IF any other big point is already taken (I don't consider the 3-3 invasion big enough now, also because I don't know if black could come out with sente ALWAYS)? Here is another example with black to play:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$ A or B are fine
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . b . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Black to play. I think best moves are between A and B. I wonder if B might be better than to enclose the corner, because 1. it puts more influence "pressure" on white and 2. it's an ideal first step for later deeper invasions and reductions. I know that if you are a pro with skills that B isn't much of a danger, but I wonder if this perception is right for amateurs. Would good amateurs play B and develop fast instead of enclosing? Would be cool to hear some 3D+ opinion.[/quote]

Really why?

[/quote]
again, they are both good moves.
i prefer tengent but it is only a preference.
depended on who my opponent is and what style he likes, i might prefer corner over tengent.

_________________
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson

@magicwand: Thx for your replies. With my last post I meant: Why would you prefer to play for White in my initial bord diagramm? That did surprise me .

because of 6.5 komi.

if it was below position i would prefer black

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$ A or B are fine
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . b . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

but below positon i like white better.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$ A or B are fine
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . b . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

for your question why?
because of komi all white have to do is play solid game maintaining the balance. that is exactly the second position.
first board position white is loose and there is no guarantee that they will maintain the balance.

i tried my best to explain my opinion.

hope it helps.

_________________
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson

I wonder about the validity of this statement.
Do we have any indication that all the possible 'sensible' combinations of the first 14 moves are in GoGoD already?
And related question: do we have a solid reasons to believe that if a pro has not played a fuseki pattern yet, it is not a good pattern?

_________________
- Bantari
______________________________________________
WARNING: This post might contain Opinions!!

Given that Pippen asked for the opinions of 3d+ players, aren't the opinions of pros that much more valuable?

This seems to be a case of white trying to outbuild black. Even with large komi, I'm not sure that works for white. I think 'a' is therefore fine for black. (I hate that kind of build, build game, but it's useful to be able to play it when you need to.) To invade white at the top now is jealous style---white doesn't have 1 move to fix it well. To play at tengen is like saying, "damn it all, white, follow my orders and invade already." It shows some spirit, but white should be able to settle easily, in which case I'm not sure the tengen stone will be useful.

But a lot of things may be playable here.

Of course it's not perfectly reliable. There was a first time that the Chinese fuseki appeared in professional play, after all.

My guess: the cases where you can infer the most are ones where the immediately preceding position is often reached and both options are orthodox, or require no special creativity. Sometimes moves are rejected because they go against a theory--which may turn out to be dogma. But if a move is ordinary, but is rejected, that suggests the professionals reject is based on careful consideration of its merits in the particular circumstance.

_________________
Occupy Babel!

Not so sure about that...

Example? The attach-and-extend joseki. It IS a joseki, perfectly playable for us lower casts, but I honestly do not remember ever seeing it in even pro game. There are probably examples out there, but I suspect rather rare. Why? because even if the move is good and playable, pros have their own reasons not to play like that - reasons which might be meaningless to most amateurs like us.

Another example? The whole avalanche joseki family. Pros play it with gusto and often. Most amateurs should stay away from it.

One reasoning for such behavior could be for example that certain moves simplify or stabilize the position too early for the pros. But such simplification or stabilization might be actually advantageous and desirable for most amateurs.

Conclusion: what is good for a pro might not always be good for amateurs. And vice versa.

Add to this the fact that pros, like the rest of the humanity, move in herds following the current fashion.
Add to this the fact that pros as a group also grow their understanding of the game over time, and what is bad today might be good tomorrow.
And so on...

So the fact that something was not yet played by a pro is not a sufficient reason for me to dismiss it like that.

If there are some good strategic/tactical reasons for rejecting the move, the story is different.
Lets hear.

_________________
- Bantari
______________________________________________
WARNING: This post might contain Opinions!!

Because White has played the third line move in the middle of the left side and the low, tight formation in the upper right, White really can't play much of a moyo game, especially White can't contest Black in a moyo race. Since Black is ahead in developing a moyo both because he had the first move and because White has played "low and slow", Black can take territory by enclosing the lower right corner without losing any of his advantage. If Black plays at B White will certainly play in the lower right corner. Black can't kill such an invasion and having a stone at B really won't affect this.

GoGoD has several hundred pro examples. Amateurs play it precisely because they are copying pros, or have been advised to play it by pros, not because they have had a sudden insight of their own into the depths of the game.

The fact that an opening move has not been played yet by a pro is not an argument for saying that that move is still available as a possibly good move. Pros have almost certainly considered just about every possible plausible looking move in the common patterns, and they have (so far) rejected most. History also shows that even when players do experiment with new moves, they soon revert to more traditional moves.

Looking for "good strategic/tactical reasons for rejecting the move [played by an amateur in defiance of pro practice]" is precisely what the pros have already done. Seems foolish for weak amateurs to ignore that. By all means play different moves for fun, but do resist the temptation to imply that this is a case of amateurs nobly trying to stretch intellectual boundaries.

For the record, I think Black is slightly ahead in this opening. White's extension on the left is a little slow, and probably should have been an approach in the lower right or a move in the top left.

White's extensions on the top and left sides are both low, and they won't related well to a White move at the tengen point. That being the case I don't think Black needs to be in a hurry to get there. I'd play 'a' without another thought and put the pressure on White to find a good plan. 'b' looks like a fancy move, but to me it has the danger of being flash without substance.

i strongly disagree with your opinion.
in my opinion white maintain the balance and playing a solid game.
if white played high then i prefer black because white is thin.

when your opponent plays influence game..one of the way to counter that is to play more solid game.
white is doing exactly that.

_________________
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson

I strongly disagree with your opinion. White looks slow, not solid.

Playing solidly is fine, but are you arguing that a low extension on the left is better (or at least as good as) any of the other moves marked 'b' below? I have seven game records with the position below and not one time did white play 'a' as a follow-up.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . b . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b b . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$---------------------------------------[/go]