joseki

standardtrickyness · #1

I read somewhere that

Uploaded with ImageShack.us is not good enough for black due to the extra two stones he had to begin with and that sealing white in is better due to the ponnuki white gets can someone explain how white will use his influence on the outside? It seems to just be a bunch of floating stones with no eyeshape that black can easily attack.

Magicwand · #2

that is not joseki.
black should never give white such punuki shape in the middle and call it a joseki.

it is very hard to explain why it is good for white.
i suggest you to memorize the answer when you dont understand.
as you get stronger you will realize why it is.

i remember asking same question to my master when i was around 1K.
now i am stronger so i can agree with him 100%.

for your question:
(from direct translation from korean) that punuki shape in the diag is not full of "elasticity" so it is very hard to attak it.
and it is very thick so it will influence the development of the middle.

Loons · #3

Based on some half-remembered KGS+ lectures by Guo Juan (she did some on ponnuki), while black is clearly bad in that diagram, white 1 is also bad. I suspect she has at least one audio go lecture available that covers it.

Dusk Eagle · #4

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . W . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . | $$ | . . . B . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I don't know why the :wc:

-

exchange occurred, but it seems like a weak move for white. Either way, remember that black has a six stone handicap and so it's understandable that the board looks better for black. However, white's influence radiates power over the top half of the board, making it a bit scary for black to get anywhere near. It also has an effect on the rest of the board, as white can more easily invade any large area black builds up.

I don't see how the shape is really attackable. Can you come up with a sequence? Even if black did launch a successful attack, those stones can be easily sacrificed if need be.

I'm not fully strong enough yet to get a feel for exactly how powerful the white shape is. I strongly suspect I will feel this result is even better for white when I am stronger than what I feel now. However, given that black had a chance to attack a weak white group and instead simply made white really strong and handed sente right back to white, even at my level I feel the result is pretty good for white. But when I was your level, I felt the same as you did, so don't feel too bad if you don't see it. I just had (and still have) to trust that the professionals knew what they were saying, and I followed what they said.

standardtrickyness · #5

Dusk Eagle wrote:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . W . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . | $$ | . . . B . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I don't know why the :wc:

-

exchange occurred, but it seems like a weak move for white. Either way, remember that black has a six stone handicap and so it's understandable that the board looks better for black. However, white's influence radiates power over the top half of the board, making it a bit scary for black to get anywhere near. It also has an effect on the rest of the board, as white can more easily invade any large area black builds up.

I don't see how the shape is really attackable. Can you come up with a sequence? Even if black did launch a successful attack, those stones can be easily sacrificed if need be.

I'm not fully strong enough yet to get a feel for exactly how powerful the white shape is. I strongly suspect I will feel this result is even better for white when I am stronger than what I feel now. However, given that black had a chance to attack a weak white group and instead simply made white really strong and handed sente right back to white, even at my level I feel the result is pretty good for white. But when I was your level, I felt the same as you did, so don't feel too bad if you don't see it. I just had (and still have) to trust that the professionals knew what they were saying, and I followed what they said.

wouldn't a move a O15 basically stop anything white has? I mean the ponnuki is not really a ponnuki because the eye is false.

gowan · #6

Quote:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . W . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . | $$ | . . . B . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I don't know why the :wc:

-

exchange occurred, but it seems like a weak move for white. Either way, remember that black has a six stone handicap and so it's understandable that the board looks better for black. However, white's influence radiates power over the top half of the board, making it a bit scary for black to get anywhere near. It also has an effect on the rest of the board, as white can more easily invade any large area black builds up.

I don't see how the shape is really attackable. Can you come up with a sequence? Even if black did launch a successful attack, those stones can be easily sacrificed if need be.

I'm not fully strong enough yet to get a feel for exactly how powerful the white shape is. I strongly suspect I will feel this result is even better for white when I am stronger than what I feel now. However, given that black had a chance to attack a weak white group and instead simply made white really strong and handed sente right back to white, even at my level I feel the result is pretty good for white. But when I was your level, I felt the same as you did, so don't feel too bad if you don't see it. I just had (and still have) to trust that the professionals knew what they were saying, and I followed what they said.

wouldn't a move a O15 basically stop anything white has? I mean the ponnuki is not really a ponnuki because the eye is false.

A ponnuki doesn't have to make a safe eye. The idea is it is a flexible shape which is easy to develop from and it is in the way of Black's development. The proverb says a ponnuki in the center is worth 30 points. That makes White's ponnuki about equal to Black's territory on the right side. See this page: http://senseis.xmp.net/?Ponnuki on SL and the linked pages.

WHite's initial invasion was a bad move, as Guo Juan said, but it is often played by WHite in high handicap games hoping Black will do something like in the question diagram. The proper way to attack the invading stone is as in the following diagram:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . 5 . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . W . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . | $$ | . . . B . . . . . . . . . 3 2 O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

After B1 the moves W2, B3, W4, B5 might occur. B5 is a beautiful leaning attack. If White doesn't try to push out after B1 Black can seal White in and that is enough for Black.

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