Board Position from one of my games.

oso · #1

This is a board position from a recent game of mine. I played white.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ "Black to get the Best Result" $$----------------------------------------- $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . X . . . X . . . X . . X . . | $$| . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X O O . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$| . . O X X . . . X , . . . . . X . . . | $$| . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$-----------------------------------------[/go]

I found it was an interesting game, resulting in a fairly close win for black by 5.5 points. Hurr... :study:

Mnemonic · #2

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ "Black to get the Best Result" $$----------------------------------------- $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . X . C . X . C . X . . X . . | $$| . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X O O . | $$| . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . | $$| . . O X X . . . X , . . . . . X . . . | $$| . . O O X . . . . . . . b . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$-----------------------------------------[/go]

I would consider one of these points. A protects the invasion points at :wc:

and elevates the otherwise very flat upper side. B on the other hand is played in the largest open region and gives purpose to :bc:

(righ now it seems a bit overconcentrated) The Problem with both of them is that they are gote :sad:

but I don't see any sente moves that you could make to strengthen your position so you have to live with whit either invading the lower right or the upper left ;-)

topazg · #3

I'd play one of the following:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ "Black to get the Best Result" $$----------------------------------------- $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . X . . . X . . . X . . X a . | $$| . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X O O . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . | $$| . . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . O . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$| . . O X X . . . X , . . . . . X . . . | $$| . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$-----------------------------------------[/go]

EDITed: Maybe the moves looked unclear judging on the following post (follow up in top left was the original reason I did it, but it did look kinda silly I guess)

lorill · #4

wow, dan players get a lot of free moves :batman:

Dusk Eagle · #5

FWIW, the 'a's look best to me:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ $$----------------------------------------- $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . a . . X . . . X . . . X . . X a . | $$| . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X O O . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . O . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$| . . O X X . . . X , . . . a . X . . . | $$| . . O O X . . . . . . . a a . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$-----------------------------------------[/go]

'b' seems too vulnerable to cutting, and both 'b' and 'c' seem a bit dame-ish, so I wouldn't play them.

Mnemonic · #6

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ $$----------------------------------------- $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 5 . . | $$| . . . . . X . . . X . . . X . 2 X 4 . | $$| . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X O O . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$| . . O X X . . . X , . . . . . X . . . | $$| . . O O X . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$-----------------------------------------[/go]

Can someone explain why :w4:

is such a big point? To me it looks like yose (and a not really big one at that) The sequence above was the best I could come up with if white plays first in that area

topazg · #7

Dusk Eagle wrote:

FWIW, the 'a's look best to me:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ $$----------------------------------------- $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . a . . X . . . X . . . X . . X a . | $$| . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X O O . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . O . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$| . . O X X . . . X , . . . a . X . . . | $$| . . O O X . . . . . . . a a . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$-----------------------------------------[/go]

'b' seems too vulnerable to cutting, and both 'b' and 'c' seem a bit dame-ish, so I wouldn't play them.

Interesting, I put "b" and "c" because I wondered if "b" was a bit much. But the "a" in the top left was designed to play on the border of two frameworks, as was "c". That's normally a pretty huge point no? Certainly White wants it.

The 3-3 in the top left seems aji-keshi to my untrained eye:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ $$----------------------------------------- $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . 5 7 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . 6 1 2 . X . . . X . . . X . . X a . | $$| . . 4 O . . . . . , . . . . . X O O . | $$| . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . O . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$| . . O X X . . . X , . . . a . X . . . | $$| . . O O X . . . . . . . a a . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$-----------------------------------------[/go]

I like all your other "a" points though. The reason I opted for the move on the right was this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ $$----------------------------------------- $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . a . . X . . . X . . . X . . X a . | $$| . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X O O . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . | $$| . . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . O . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$| . . O X X . . . X , . . . a . X . . . | $$| . . O O X . . . . . . . a a . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$-----------------------------------------[/go]

@Mnem - The top right move I don't think I'd play just yet, but I'd want it soon. The question is whether Black can ignore White playing there, which I think would be very painful. The direct change of points is quite large, and the value of 1 in my last diagram here increases a lot if Black has blocked, as suddenly the stability of the entire White group is brought into question.

That's my reasoning anyway

Dusk Eagle · #8

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ $$----------------------------------------- $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . a . . B . . . X . . . X . . X a . | $$| . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X O O . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . O . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$| . . O X X . . . X , . . . a . X . . . | $$| . . O O X . . . . . . . a a . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$-----------------------------------------[/go]

'b' and 'c' would look better to me if black already had a move on one of the bottom 'a's. As it is, I fear white can live there too easily, and that's when 'b' and 'c' would be dame.

I liked the top-left 'a' because it strengthens the :bc:

stone, protecting somewhat against invasions. It could be too early though.

Now that I've thought about it a bit more, I'm also kind of curious about trying something like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ $$----------------------------------------- $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . a . . X . . . X . . . X . . X a . | $$| . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X O O . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . 2 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . O . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$| . . O X X . . . X , . . . a . X . . . | $$| . . O O X . . . . . . . a a . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$-----------------------------------------[/go]

So, right now I'd probably play as above. I'd play in one of the bottom-right 'a' regions instead, but then white would play 'c' and make me uncomfortable. Hence, why I'm trying to break up the left region first.

Some more diagrams:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W at \nNote that if white already has a stone at 'c', \nthis doesn't work. $$----------------------------------------- $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . a . . X . . . X . . . X . . X a . | $$| . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X O O . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$| . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . 3 B 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . 6 O X 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . 4 O . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$| . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . O . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$| . . O X X . . . X , . . . a . X . . . | $$| . . O O X . . . . . . . a a . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$-----------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$----------------------------------------- $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . a . . X . . . X . . . X . . X a . | $$| . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X O O . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$| . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . O X 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . 3 O . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . O . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$| . . O X X . . . X , . . . a . X . . . | $$| . . O O X . . . . . . . a a . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$-----------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$----------------------------------------- $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . a . . X . . . X . . . X . . X a . | $$| . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X O O . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . X 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . 1 O . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . O . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$| . . O X X . . . X , . . . a . X . . . | $$| . . O O X . . . . . . . a a . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$-----------------------------------------[/go]

Bill Spight · #9

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ "Black to get the Best Result" $$----------------------------------------- $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . X . . . X . . . X . . X . . | $$| . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X O O . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . | $$| . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$| . . O X X . . . X , . . . . . X . . . | $$| . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$-----------------------------------------[/go]

I am surprised that nobody has mentioned this play.

topazg · **#10**

Bill Spight wrote:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ "Black to get the Best Result" $$----------------------------------------- $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . X . . . X . . . X . . X . . | $$| . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X O O . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . | $$| . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$| . . O X X . . . X , . . . . . X . . . | $$| . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$-----------------------------------------[/go]

I am surprised that nobody has mentioned this play.

Yeah, I realised I should have mentioned that one, it's pretty huge too, thanks Bill

Phelan · **#11**

topazg · **#12**

Phelan wrote:

oso · **#13**

Wow. I didn't realize the extent of possibilities at 5the time that the game was being played. I'm glad I provided an interesting problem!

On a side note, could we get a positional analysis? That might help in solving the problem, I think.

Phelan · **#14**

topazg wrote:

gaius · **#15**

Maybe I'm too simple-minded, but this really looks like the only move to me.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ "Black to get the Best Result" $$----------------------------------------- $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . X . . . X . . . X . . X 1 . | $$| . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X O O . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$| . . O X X . . . X , . . . . . X . . . | $$| . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$-----------------------------------------[/go]

Just visualise the difference with a white move there:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc "Black to get the Best Result" $$----------------------------------------- $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . X . . . X . . . X . . X 1 . | $$| . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X O O . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$| . . O X X . . . X , . . . . . X . . . | $$| . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$-----------------------------------------[/go]

They say that one should aim at playing moves that do more than one thing (as long as they are not half-hearted attempts at accomplishing those goals). Well, this move:

Makes black's corner 100% resilient for future attack, thereby solidifying black's moyo somewhat
Takes away white's eyespace in the corner, thereby threatening a splitting attack at 'a'
Takes about 10 points of territory
Robs white of the chance to make about 10 points of territory while threatening black's base

Enough?

Bill Spight's move is also interesting (he's quite a bit stronger than me). Still, I (humbly) think my move looks better than his

. It puts more pressure on white, and, as a bonus, it simply takes more points in the corner.

flOvermind · **#16**

gaius wrote: