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 Post subject: Re: 103. EdLee vs topazg
Post #21 Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 9:46 am 
Tengen
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Fredrik wrote:
Yeah this last variation is great for black. Next, I can hane at G16, and if you cut you will be in great danger.. I can provide some variations tomorrow or later tonight. I don't think White can counter-pincer. Usually White finish the joseki by playing at B16 first, in which Black answer with an extension on the leftside.


agree with you 100%. counter pincer is an overplay..
also..since black has chinese opening with solid point advantage i think giving up the corner in gote is out of the question.

thank you for your input.


edit:
but i still would play counter pincer.. anything else is a losing picture in my eye.. :D

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Post #22 Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 12:34 pm 
Honinbo
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Usually B's double approach is at (a) or (b);
seems topazg is in the mood for something a little different. :)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm11
$$ ---------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . X . O . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . . ,
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . b a . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]
A first feeling is the attach :wc:, which locally makes good shape for W,
after which B has the hane (a), wedge (b), and possibly many other variations.
Have to think about this.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm11
$$ ---------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . X . O . .
$$ | . . . O b W a . . ,
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

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Post #23 Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 12:16 am 
Honinbo
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm12
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 1 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Many variations here. Just have to take it one move at a time.

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 Post subject: Re: 103. EdLee vs topazg
Post #24 Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 1:21 am 
Tengen
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm13 Prisoners: :w100: :b100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The idea here is to take the left sided corner, but bigger than with the nearer double approach, or neutralise the left whilst living in the corner. Normal stuff, with a few more complications.

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Post #25 Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 2:08 am 
Honinbo
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Pondering this sequence:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm13
$$ -----------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . .
$$ | . . 1 3 . X . O . . .
$$ | . . 2 O 4 O . . . , .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: 103. EdLee vs topazg
Post #26 Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 2:48 am 
Tengen
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Some thoughts:

As I said before, I picked this because I want to value the left side now. As White, I'd have picked a different pincer that kept the top side more interesting (J16 appeals the most), as I think that makes Black's choice a bit harder. I chose this double approach over D14 because it's apparently what all the cool kids do these days, and I wanted to try it out. So, how do I envisage it progressing?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm13 Standard joseki
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 7 6 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 2 . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 O . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . 0 4 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm23 Continuation
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . O . . . . . a . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 X O . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O O X 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I'm happy with this. Points, alive-ness, and a sort of miai of "a" points. The block at D17 is considered better than E17 because D17 creates some liberty issues for Black, and the normal reason of playing E17 is that it kills F17. However, because of the placement of H17, it doesn't, as Black gets to resurrect the stone later with G17, so the aji is huge.

Of course, White may block the other side:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm13 Other block
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 3 . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 O 4 O a . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . b . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The cut at "a" is pretty severe now, so I suspect White will fix in gote, and Black gets to take "b". The top side then becomes mega urgent.

If Black tries to resist better, I don't think it works:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm13 Black goes crazy
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 9 8 X 4 O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 O 5 O 3 . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . 7 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . b . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


After White captures, none of the liberty issues are in Black's favour. So, better to hold the corner and leave the ability to do this, than play it when it doesn't work. Honte and all that.

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 Post subject: Re: 103. EdLee vs topazg
Post #27 Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 3:02 am 
Tengen
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another comment by magicwand: for obs only:
i guess topazg has studied this variation well.
i will hold my comment until he finish this variation for i think he is stronger than i am at this variation :D

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Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson

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Post #28 Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 9:21 pm 
Honinbo
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm14
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 O . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Post #29 Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 10:30 pm 
Honinbo
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Deciding among (a), (b), and (c) was non-trivial for me,
as each has many variations with different implications both locally and globally:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm14 Choices
$$ -------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X b c X . O .
$$ | . . a O . O . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Reference joseki
$$ -------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 7 5 6 . . . .
$$ | . . 1 2 8 X . O .
$$ | . . 3 O . . . . .
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . .
$$ | . . 9 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . d . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Reference variation
$$ -------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 4 5 . . . . .
$$ | . . X 1 . X . O .
$$ | . . 2 O . 9 . . .
$$ | . . 3 6 7 . . . .
$$ | . . 0 8 . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Variation (b) 1
$$ -------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X 1 . X . O .
$$ | . . 2 O . O . . .
$$ | . . 4 3 . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Variation (b) 2
$$ -------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . 4 3 5 . . . . .
$$ | . . X O . X . O .
$$ | . 8 X O . O . . .
$$ | . 7 1 2 9 . . . .
$$ | . . 6 0 . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Variation (c)
$$ -------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . 1 X e O .
$$ | . . 2 O . O . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . f . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]
For example, in variations (b)1, (b)2 and (c), although W has sente (say, to extend from the lower left corner),
it seems locally B is (slightly?) better than W, as B is higher and completely settled with no weakness,
much like B is better in the Reference variation than in the Reference joseki,
where B is lower and later W has the good point (d).
In variation (c), later W has (f) but B also has (e).

These are merely a few of the myriad of variations.
Looks like we might have a messy fighting game.

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 Post subject: Re: 103. EdLee vs topazg
Post #30 Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 3:50 am 
Tengen
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KGS: topazg
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm14
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 2 . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 O . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


No choice here

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Post #31 Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 8:59 am 
Honinbo
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm16
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O 1 O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: 103. EdLee vs topazg
Post #32 Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 9:47 am 
Lives in sente
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EdLee:

Why not push through? It seems to be worth a few more points without really destroying any aji, and gives you 'a' endgame.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm16
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . a X X 1 X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O 3 O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Post #33 Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 10:12 am 
Gosei
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I would play the same as EdLee did.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X a X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O 1 O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

After :w1:- :b2:, white can still push at 'a' anytime.

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Post #34 Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 12:23 pm 
Judan
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@topazg: I just joined this thread, so please pardon the late question.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm7 Prisoners: :w100: :b100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


In the above position, you played 'a' with no explanation. Did you consider 'b'?

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Post #35 Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 12:39 pm 
Tengen
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KGS: topazg
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm16
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O 1 O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


In a rush Joaz, so no time to give a proper response just yet - will send one through in a couple of hours :)

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Post #36 Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 2:01 pm 
Gosei
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This post by Solomon was liked by: Joaz Banbeck
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Post #37 Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 3:23 pm 
Tengen
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@Joaz:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm7 Prisoners: :w100: :b100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . a . . . . . . . d . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . e . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


To be honest, it was just personal preference, I don't think I can honestly give a justification as to why one is better or worse than the other. The left and top are both very interesting. I'd rather not approach the lower left just yet, so that leaves "a", "b", "c", "d", or "e" I think. I've been keeping a reasonable eye on professional games recently, so I've been happy with anything that I would want to play anyway, that looks similar to a move and position where it was played professionally. The idea is we both top corners want to develop the top, and both left corners want to develop the left, so by approaching here I either get to develop the top (although I was planning on sliding and pulling back at J17 rather than my normal move at K16), or I get to double approach. Had he played the pincer I was expecting at J16, I'd prepared C14 in response.

Here are the beginnings to some recent, contextually similar, professional games :)

[sgf-full](;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]
RU[Japanese]SZ[19]KM[7.50]
PW[Xie He]PB[Gu Li]WR[7d]BR[9d]DT[2010-09-27]EV[3rd Quzhou-Lanke Cup tournament 3rd round]RE[W+Resign]
;B[pd]
;W[dd]
;B[pq]
;W[dp]
;B[qk]
;W[mp]
;B[po]
;W[jp]
;B[cj]
;W[cm]
;B[cf]
;W[fc])[/sgf-full]

[sgf-full](;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]
RU[Japanese]SZ[19]KM[7.50]
PW[Jiang Weijie]PB[Piao Wenyao]WR[5d]BR[5d]DT[2010-09-27]EV[3rd Quzhou-Lanke Cup tournament 3rd round]RE[W+Resign]
;B[pd]
;W[dp]
;B[pq]
;W[dd]
;B[qk]
;W[mq]
;B[po]
;W[jq]
;B[cn]
;W[fp]
;B[bp])[/sgf-full]

[sgf-full](;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]
RU[Japanese]SZ[19]KM[8.00]
PW[Tuo Jiaxi]PB[Zhou Ruiyang]WR[3d]BR[5d]DT[2010-10-27]EV[7th Changqi Cup final]RO[2]RE[B+Resign]
;B[pd]
;W[dd]
;B[pq]
;W[dp]
;B[qk]
;W[fq]
;B[jd]
;W[hc]
;B[cf]
;W[di]
;B[cc])[/sgf-full]

[sgf-full](;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]
RU[Japanese]SZ[19]KM[6.50]
PW[Moon Dowon]PB[Aoki Kikuyo]WR[2d]BR[8d]DT[2011-01-08]EV[9th Jeongganjang Cup]RO[1]SO[Mr. Kin]RE[W+Resign]
;B[pd]
;W[dd]
;B[pq]
;W[dp]
;B[qk]
;W[fq]
;B[fc]
;W[cf]
;B[jd]
;W[qf])[/sgf-full]

[sgf-full](;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]
RU[Japanese]SZ[19]KM[6.50]
PW[Kang Dongyun]PB[Won Sungjin]WR[9d]BR[9d]DT[2010-12-21]EV[12th Maxim Cup]RO[2]SO[weiqi.tom.com]RE[W+Resign]
;B[pd]
;W[dd]
;B[pq]
;W[dp]
;B[qk]
;W[fq]
;B[jd]
;W[fc]
;B[cj])[/sgf-full]

[sgf-full](;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]
RU[Japanese]SZ[19]KM[6.50]
PW[Lee Taehyun]PB[Choi Cheolhan]WR[3d]BR[9d]DT[2011-01-07]EV[15th Chunwon final]RO[2]SO[Mr. Kin]RE[B+Resign]
;B[pd]
;W[dd]
;B[pq]
;W[dp]
;B[qk]
;W[mq]
;B[po]
;W[jq]
;B[nc]
;W[cn]
;B[fc]
;W[df]
;B[id]
;W[di]
;B[qe])[/sgf-full]

[sgf-full](;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]
RU[Japanese]SZ[19]KM[6.50]
PW[Heo Yeongho]PB[Gu Li]WR[7d]BR[9d]DT[2010-12-10]EV[15th Samsung Cup Final]RO[3]SO[weiqi.tom.com]RE[B+Resign]VW[]
;B[pd]
;W[dd]
;B[pq]
;W[dp]
;B[qk]
;W[mq]
;B[po]
;W[jq]
;B[nc]
;W[cn]
;B[fc]
;W[df]
;B[id])[/sgf-full]

[sgf-full](;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]
RU[Japanese]SZ[19]KM[6.50]
PW[Cho U]PB[Kono Rin]WR[9d]BR[9d]DT[2011-02-05]EV[30th NEC Cup]RO[Semifinal]RE[W+9.50]
;B[pd]
;W[dp]
;B[pq]
;W[dd]
;B[qk]
;W[mp]
;B[po]
;W[jq]
;B[nc]
;W[cn]
;B[fc]
;W[df]
;B[id])[/sgf-full]


Thoughts on the last move:

Well, this is interesting, I have no idea whether this will be good for me on the left or not. If he pincers, I'm thinking of one of the following:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm16
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O 1 O a . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I think "b" lets him fix "a", and doesn't do a lot for me. "a" looks exciting, and I'm really tempted with it. Something as follows perhaps?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm19
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . X 2 O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O 1 . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . W . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If he fixes the cut, I'm playing that 2 point extension myself, and I feel reasonably ok with the board as a whole. I predict something like:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm16
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . X . O . . . . . 5 . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O 1 O . . . , . . . 6 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


All fun and games :)

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 Post subject: Re: 103. EdLee vs topazg
Post #38 Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 4:41 pm 
Judan
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To observers:
topazg wrote:
...
If he fixes the cut, I'm playing that 2 point extension myself, and I feel reasonably ok with the board as a whole. I predict something like:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm16
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . X . O . . . . . 5 . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O 1 O . . . , . . . 6 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

...



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm16
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I've got a theoretical fuseki question here. Is the marked stone really a good place for black to develop? My gut reflex is to say that it is compromised by the wall nearby, and therefore as long as it has running room I don't need to bother with it until the temperature drops a bit. I might play 'a' in this position.
Any profound thoughts on the subject would be appreciated.

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 Post subject: Re: 103. EdLee vs topazg
Post #39 Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 5:45 pm 
Gosei
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Some idle speculation @Joaz

I think black wants the left to be boring, because it is where white has an interest. So surely developing in a stable way is preferable; and that two space high base is classic in joseki where white has not counter-pincered in time. I don't understand what other sort of result black would aim for on the left. As black at 'a', I would feel uncomfortable with white's eg. three space high pincer, which might be a vital point for both players. What joseki/other result would your aim be on the left (as black)?

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 Post subject: Re: 103. EdLee vs topazg
Post #40 Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 7:01 pm 
Judan
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@Loons & other observers:
I'm not really looking at it from the point of view of an alternate joseki, rather I am looking at it as a variation of this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm16
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . B . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


...in which we would reflexively abandon or at least discount the marked stone. ( 'A' is a DDK move, right? )

Next, what about black playing 'a' here?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm16
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Another way of asking the question is: how far away does the marked stone have to be before its character changes from 'abandon for the near term' to 'reinforce immediately'?

_________________
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