Does White play the next move at "a"? (for Dan players)

Pippen · #1

or is this move bad because too overconcentrated?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ b $$ -------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O O . O . . . . . O O X . . . | $$ | . . . X . X O . . , . . O X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X O . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O O X . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . a . . . . O , O X . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O O X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . | $$ --------------------------------------[/go]

topazg · #2

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ b $$ -------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O O . O . . . . . O O X . . . | $$ | . . . X . X O . . , . . O X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X O . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . b X . . X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . b O X O O X . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . a . . . . O , O X . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O O X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . | $$ --------------------------------------[/go]

I'd actually be tempted to play one of the "b" points to kill aji here. Black can't play at the bottom and make a two space extension, so I'd make the thickness thicker.

amnal · #3

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ w $$ -------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O O . O . . . . . O O X . . . | $$ | . . . X . X O . . , . . O X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X O . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . b X . . X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O O X . | $$ | . c . O . . . . . a . . . . O , O X . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O O X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . | $$ --------------------------------------[/go]

I would most like to play at b. After that, white can invade black's positions anywhere easily, and black doesn't have time to get everywhere first. If white plays elsewhere, I think b is a worrying black invasion point later.

If I was convinced that my thickness was strong, or perhaps had 'b' in place already, I would definitely not play a. If the wall is thick, you should play far away - I like c. If the wall is not thick, you should not pretend it is, and should fix it. Or so I reckon in this case.

Edit: Actually, C is big, but black has some weaknesses that may be bigger than that. Using the thickness to destroy black's left side might well be much speedier (and better) than slowly eating the corner.

Magicwand · #4

IMO 'a' is the only play that i will make.
if you play 'a' it is not easy for black to play 'b'
if you play 'b' there is no guarantee that thickness will turn into points.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ b $$ -------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O O . O . . . . . O O X . . . | $$ | . . . X . X O . . , . . O X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X O . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . b X . . X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O O X . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . a . . . . O , O X . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O O X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . | $$ --------------------------------------[/go]

gaius · #5

Hmmm, I would personally prefer to play one line to the left:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ -------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O O . O . . . . . O O X . . . | $$ | . . . X . X O . . , . . O X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X O . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X @ @ X . | $$ | . . . O . . . . 1 , . . . . O , @ X . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O O X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . | $$ --------------------------------------[/go]

To me, this seems to make it actually quite a bit harder for black to invade. It also feels like the proper distance from the wall.

I'm not really worried about the aji. If necessary, you can always sacrifice the three marked stones...

Jedo · #6

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ b $$ -------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O O . O . . . . . O O X . . . | $$ | . . . X . X O . . , . . O X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X O . | $$ | . . X . 0 . . . . . . . . X . . X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O O X . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O , O X . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O O X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . | $$ --------------------------------------[/go]

I was thinking about this move.

tj86430 · #7

Jedo wrote:

I was thinking about this move.

You are not dan, you shall not answer! :twisted:

topazg · #8

Gaius wrote:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ -------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O O . O . . . . . O O X . . . | $$ | . . . X . X O . . , . . O X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X O . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X @ @ X . | $$ | . . . O . . . . 1 2 . . . . O , @ X . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O O X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . | $$ --------------------------------------[/go]

My concern was whether the aji would enable Black to get away with anything like this later .. It's out of my reading ability though

Chew Terr · #9

tj86430 wrote:

Jedo wrote:

I was thinking about this move.

You are not dan, you shall not answer! :twisted:

Hey, for all we know that's his name. =D :lol:

mitsun · **#10**

The proposed extension at looks well placed between the White wall and the White corner, but unfortunately the White wall has a glaring weakness. I would instead play to complete the wall, extending its influence into the center, trusting that the gain in thickness will be worth a full move over time.

This does permit Black to reduce or invade below fairly easily, but then White will have something to attack and should be able to get compensation elsewhere, probably by invading the left side. A few possible sequences:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc B reduces with shoulder hit $$ -------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O O . O . . . . . O O X . . . | $$ | . . . X . X O . . , . . O X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X O . | $$ | . . X . 4 . . . . . . . @ X . . X X . | $$ | . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . O X O O X . | $$ | . . . O . 2 1 . . . . . . . O , O X . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O O X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . | $$ --------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc B invades directly $$ -------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O O . O . . . . . O O X . . . | $$ | . . . X . X O . . , . . O X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X O . | $$ | . . X . . . 4 . . . . . @ X . . X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . O X O O X . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . 1 . . . . O , O X . | $$ | . . . . . O . 2 . . . . . . O O X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . | $$ --------------------------------------[/go]

The alternative looks worse to me. If White extends from the wall, it looks like Black can activate the cutting stone immediately. If White protects his territory passively, Black gets center strength, the White group above starts looking weak, and the White territory below is not huge. One possible sequence:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc B exploits the weakness in the wall $$ -------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O O . O . . . . . O O X . . . | $$ | . . . X . X O . . , . . O X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . X O X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X O . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . 3 1 X 2 . X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O O X . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . @ . 4 . . O , O X . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O O X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . | $$ --------------------------------------[/go]

If White attempts to capture the Black cutting stone, a difficult fight erupts, and it is not clear who wins. But even if Black decides this fight is not immediately advisable, the aji is severe -- almost any probe around the bottom will threaten to activate the cut. One possible sequence:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc B cuts, W fights back $$ -------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O O . O . . . . . O O X . . . | $$ | . . . X . X O . . , . . O X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 7 6 X O X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 5 O O X X X O . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . 2 1 X 4 . X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 O X O O X . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . @ . . . . O , O X . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O O X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . | $$ --------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc B cuts, W fights back, B sacrifices $$ -------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O O . O . . . . . O O X . . . | $$ | . . . X . X O . . , . . O X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O X O X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X X X O . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . 1 O X X O . X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 3 2 X O . O O X . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . @ 5 4 . . O , O X . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O O X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . | $$ --------------------------------------[/go]

Does White play the next move at "a"? (for Dan players)

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