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 Post subject: Re: Fast or superfast development in fuseki?
Post #21 Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 6:15 am 
Oza
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pwaldron wrote:
...Playing solidly is fine, but are you arguing that a low extension on the left is better (or at least as good as) any of the other moves marked 'b' below? I have seven game records with the position below and not one time did white play 'a' as a follow-up.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . b . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b b . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$---------------------------------------[/go]


The summer 2010 version of GoGoD has 10 games from this position. In all ten White chose the 1-space high approach in the lower right as the next play, and won seven of the games. On the other hand, Gu Li has contributed two of White's three losses - the last two games played, 1 in 2007 and 1 in 2010 - so maybe White should consider something else. ;-)

More broadly, however, consider the side position below where White has responded at C6 to a Black approach at F3. In almost 1500 pro games in GoGoD there is not a single example of White playing at 'a' as the next move on this side.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c -------------
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . a , . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . .
$$ | . . . . . X . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$------------------[/go]


Similarly, there are 171 examples of the position below, White responding to a Black approach when C10 is already on the board. In this case there is exactly one game in which White played at 'a', but guess what... an amateur played it (colors reversed) in a handicap teaching game against a pro!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c -------------
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O , . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . a . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . .
$$ | . . . . . X . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: Fast or superfast development in fuseki?
Post #22 Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 2:51 pm 
Tengen
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just because more professionals had better winning percentage it doesnt mean anything.

when i play white with 6.5 komi that is what i prefer.
5.5 may be totally different game.

reason why i posted my opinion is that i want people to feel the thickness of white.

why do amature players try to decide what is good and bad when professionals dont agree?
it is a matter of taste. some people like white some like black. and i used to like black but now i like white.

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 Post subject: Re: Fast or superfast development in fuseki?
Post #23 Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 1:11 am 
Oza
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John Fairbairn wrote:

Looking for "good strategic/tactical reasons for rejecting the move [played by an amateur in defiance of pro practice]" is precisely what the pros have already done. Seems foolish for weak amateurs to ignore that. By all means play different moves for fun, but do resist the temptation to imply that this is a case of amateurs nobly trying to stretch intellectual boundaries.


The question is whose intellectual boundaries. When amateurs play moves in defiance of pro practice, the purpose is generally not to add to the global go consciousness (your database) but rather to improve their own chances of winning the game. The reasons that the move has been determined to be inferior are a subset of the depth that the position has been read out. That is, if the amateur is aware of the rejected continuation and still plays the move, he is indeed foolish. If however he plays the move with another, perhaps shorter continuation in mind, he is presumably pressing the intellectual boundaries of himself and his opponent in the direction of the professional's.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but when Bantari writes: "do we have a solid reasons to believe that if a pro has not played a fuseki pattern yet, it is not a good pattern?" he does not mean that a professional might not have thought it out, but rather that the professional's reasoning may be irrelevant. This is surely the case if any of the follow-up moves do not conform to the professional's continuation. To ask why is not to imply a weakness in the professional's reasoning, but rather to challenge the solidity of his own.

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 Post subject: Re: Fast or superfast development in fuseki?
Post #24 Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 6:06 am 
Judan

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Amateurs have a greater potential for broadening insight about the game than professionals simply because there are many more amateurs than professionals... More professionals have said they wanted to try my black fuseki than have said it was bad. (By far the most have said that they did not know.)

I disagree that players with new fusekis would come back to established fusekis; rather I use both. Winning percentage was much greater when my invention was a novelty; now it approaches that of traditional fuseki; it does not fall below it though. Therefore more new fusekis should be invented as secret weapons quite like more new josekis were and are invented to surprise unprepared opponents.

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