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Offline Bill Spight
 Post subject: Positional judgement exercises
Post #1 Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:24 pm 
Honinbo

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Honinbo Jowa recommended assessing the position after move 30, move 50, and move 100. (I take those numbers to be approximate. :) )

So I thought it might be interesting to show a top pro game at around those points, so people could give it a try. I have no answers, just the final score.

Edit: I have added another at note #7.
And another at note #13.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Yasui Chitoku (W) vs. Honinbo Genjo, after move 34
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . O . . . . . X O O . . . |
$$ | . . X , . O . O X , . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . X O . O X X . . . X O O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W After move 56
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O . O X X . X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , O . O . . O . . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . X X X O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . O . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . O X . . . . X O O . . . |
$$ | . . X , . O . O X , . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . X O . O X X . . . X O O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W After move 102, 1 White prisoner
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O . O X X O X X X . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . O , O O O O O O O . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . X X X O X O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O O X X X . . X . . . . . X . O . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . X . . . . . . X . O . . |
$$ | . . O , X . O X . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O . O . . . X . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X . O . O X . . . . X O O . . . |
$$ | . . X , . O . O X , . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . X O . O X X . . . X O O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . O X . . X . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Final board:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B After move 231, 1 Black prisoner, 4 White prisoners, Black wins by 9
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . O O X . . . . . . . X . X |
$$ | . . . . . O . X X O X . X . . . X X O |
$$ | O O . O . O X X O X X X O . . . . X O |
$$ | X O O , O O O O O O O O X X X X X O O |
$$ | X X X X O X O . . . . O O X . X O O . |
$$ | X O O X X X . . X X X X X . X . O . . |
$$ | O . O X . X O O X O X O . . . X X O . |
$$ | . O O X O X X . . O X X O . . O X O . |
$$ | O . . O O X . X . . O O X X X X O . . |
$$ | . O O O X . O X . O . X O . . , O . . |
$$ | O . O X X X X O O . X X O O X X O . . |
$$ | X O . O O X . X O . X . X O O O . . . |
$$ | X X O . O X X X . O X X X O X O . . . |
$$ | . X O O X O X O O O O X . X X O . . . |
$$ | . X X X X O O O X O X . . X O O . . . |
$$ | . . X , O O . O X X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . X O . O X X . . . X O O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X O O O X . . X . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . X O O . X . . . . X X X X O . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


And the game record:



Enjoy! :)

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.


Last edited by Bill Spight on Thu Aug 02, 2012 9:34 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Offline Magicwand
 Post subject: Re: Positional judgement exercise
Post #2 Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 2:30 pm 
Tengen
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thank you for intresting game.
i feel that black led start to end.
white never had any chance (or if he had any..he didnt grab it)

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The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson
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Offline Kirby
 Post subject: Re: Positional judgement exercise
Post #3 Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 2:41 pm 
Honinbo

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Here:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Yasui Chitoku (W) vs. Honinbo Genjo, after move 34
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . O . . . . . X O O . . . |
$$ | . . X , . O . O X , . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . X O . O X X . . . X O O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If I am playing black, I think that I am losing.

If I am playing white... I think that I am losing. :scratch:

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be immersed

This post by Kirby was liked by 2 people: gasana, topazg
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Offline mw42
 Post subject: Re: Positional judgement exercise
Post #4 Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 2:42 pm 
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Kirby wrote:
Here:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Yasui Chitoku (W) vs. Honinbo Genjo, after move 34
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . O . . . . . X O O . . . |
$$ | . . X , . O . O X , . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . X O . O X X . . . X O O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If I am playing black, I think that I am losing.

If I am playing white... I think that I am losing. :scratch:


So it's even? :lol:
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Offline Dusk Eagle
 Post subject: Re: Positional judgement exercise
Post #5 Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 5:01 pm 
Gosei
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I thought the first two looked even, then in the third one I preferred black. I didn't count though, or consider the (lack of) komi.

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Each of us woke up one moment and here we were in the darkness.
We're nameless things with no memory; no knowledge of what went before,
No understanding of what is now, no knowledge of what will be.
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Offline Bill Spight
 Post subject: Re: Positional judgement exercise
Post #6 Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 6:57 am 
Honinbo

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BTW, I admire :b45:. :) I doubt if I would find it over the board.

:b57: is very good, too.

My assessments:

The first two positions seem pretty equal to me. OC, Black has sente, so he has an advantage.

The third position favors Black, IMO. Playing a peer without komi, I would feel very confident. :) The +9 result seems about right, given this position.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Offline Bill Spight
 Post subject: Re: Positional judgement exercise
Post #7 Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 7:34 am 
Honinbo

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How about another one? :)

Enjoy!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Okunuki Chisaku (W) vs. Jowa, move 38, 1 Black prisoner, 1 White prisoner
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . O . . X . . X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Move 60, 1 Black prisoner, 1 White prisoner
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . O . . X . . X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . X . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . X O O . . . . X O O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . X X O . . O . X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . O , X O . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . X X O . O . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Move 110, 1 Black prisoner, 1 White prisoner
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . X O O . O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . O X O X . . X O O X . . . |
$$ | . . X X X O . X O , . X . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . O O . X O X X . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O X O O X . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O . X . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X O . X . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O . X O O . . . . X O O . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . X X O . . O . X X O O . . |
$$ | . X . , O . . . O , X O . . . X O . . |
$$ | . O O O . X . X X O . O . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Final board:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black wins by 9
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . X X O O . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . X . X O O X O O O O O O O O X X . |
$$ | . . . X O O O X O X X X X O O X . . X |
$$ | . . X X X O . X O O . X . . . X X X O |
$$ | . X X O O O . X O X X . . O O X O O O |
$$ | X X O O X O O O X O O X . O X X O . . |
$$ | O O O O X O . O X . O X . O X X O . . |
$$ | O X X X X X . X X . O X X O X O O . . |
$$ | X X . . X O . . . . O O X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O X . X . , . . . X O O . . . |
$$ | . X . X O . X X X X X . . X O . O . . |
$$ | X O X X O O O X . . X O . O X O . . . |
$$ | . O X X O O . O X . . X . X X X O . . |
$$ | O X O O O O . O O X . X . X O O . . . |
$$ | O X X X O O . . O X X . X X X O O . . |
$$ | O X . , O O . O O O X . X . . X O O . |
$$ | . O O O O . . . . O X . X . X . X O . |
$$ | O . . . O . O . O O X X . X . . X X O |
$$ | . O . O . . O O . O O O X . . . . X . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.


Last edited by Bill Spight on Thu Aug 02, 2012 9:35 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: Positional judgement exercise
Post #8 Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 7:38 am 
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White - Black - Black for me on this second one :)
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Offline Kirby
 Post subject: Re: Positional judgement exercise
Post #9 Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 7:40 am 
Honinbo

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Based on feeling alone, I favor white for the first diagram, and black for the second two.


Edit: I was ninja-ed.

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Offline mw42
 Post subject: Re: Positional judgement exercises
Post #10 Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 7:45 am 
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I thought black was ahead the whole game. Initially, I liked white in the first diagram mostly because of the top right corner, but as it was black's move I figured he'd get to play there first.

For the first game, I thought all the diagrams were more or less even perhaps with a white edge in the first. After I saw there was no komi, I preferred black for the third diagram, but I may have been influenced by also knowing the result.
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Offline Dusk Eagle
 Post subject: Re: Positional judgement exercises
Post #11 Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 3:19 pm 
Gosei
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Again, just a quick look, but I prefer black all the way through.

_________________
We don't know who we are; we don't know where we are.
Each of us woke up one moment and here we were in the darkness.
We're nameless things with no memory; no knowledge of what went before,
No understanding of what is now, no knowledge of what will be.
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Offline Bill Spight
 Post subject: Re: Positional judgement exercises
Post #12 Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:23 am 
Honinbo

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That Jowa magic is wonderful to behold. :)

Position 1: I felt was pretty even. OC, Black has the advantage of sente.

Position 2: Black is ahead, because of the weakness of White's bottom left group.

Positon 3: I misjudged this one, because I did not fully appreciate the weakness of White's group on the bottom side. I thought the position was pretty close. However, there were so many weaknesses on both sides that I was not confident of any assessment. At the same time, the existence of those weaknesses meant that the value of sente was high, and that favored Black.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Offline Bill Spight
 Post subject: Re: Positional judgement exercises
Post #13 Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 6:02 am 
Honinbo

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How about another Jowa special? :)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Jowa (W) vs. Hattori Rittetsu, move 28
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . . X . O . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . O X . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . X . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . X . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Move 48, 1 Black prisoner, 1 White prisoner
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . . X . O X O X O . O |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . O X O X X O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . X O . O O X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . X . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . X . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Move 102, 2 Black prisoners, 1 White prisoner
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O X O X O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . . X . O X O X O . O |
$$ | . . O , O . . . . , . . O X O X X O . |
$$ | . . X . X X . . . X X O O O O X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . X . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O X O . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X X . X X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O O . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . X O X . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . X , O . X . . , O . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . X . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Final board:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W 354 moves, White wins by 11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . X X X X X O . |
$$ | X . X O . O X . . . O X O X O X O O . |
$$ | . . X O . O X . . . X X O X O X O . O |
$$ | X X O O O X O X X , . X O X O X X O O |
$$ | . X X X X X . . O X X O O O O X . X O |
$$ | O O O O O O X . O O O X X O O O X X X |
$$ | . O X X X O X . X . O O X X O O O X . |
$$ | O O . O X O X . X O . O O X . O X X X |
$$ | . O O X X X O O O . O O X . X O O X O |
$$ | . . . O O O O X . O . O X X O O X X . |
$$ | O O . . . O O . X O O X X . X O O X X |
$$ | . O O O . . O O O X X X X X O O O O X |
$$ | . O X X O . O . . O X O X . X O . X X |
$$ | . O . O . . . . O O O . O X X X X . X |
$$ | . . O . O O . . . O . O O O O O O X X |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . O O O X X X X O X X |
$$ | . X X X O O . . . O . O O O O X O O O |
$$ | O . X O O O O O . . . O . O X X X X X |
$$ | . X . X O . . O O . . . . O X . O X . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Wow!


Game record:


_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
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