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 Post subject: Re: Anzan
Post #21 Posted: Sat May 28, 2011 8:32 am 
Honinbo

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Just a quick note on "effortful effort". That rang a bell, though I am sure that there are subtleties of which I am unaware. :)

There is what is now fairly ancient research that indicates that the best challenges for learning are those at which you can succeed about half the time. Such challenges help motivation as well as being efficient from an information theoretic point of view. In terms of play, go handicaps provide such challenges, since they are adjusted so that the win rate is about 50-50. In terms of study or practicing problems, finding the sweet spot is not so obvious. For instance, how long do you spend on a problem? But the point is that there is an optimal region of effort that is not too hard and not too easy. Finding out where it is probably requires trial and error.

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Post #22 Posted: Sat May 28, 2011 10:04 am 
Oza

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My brain scrambled the references to links above. I have since looked at Bill's page and it seems he was the author of "effortful effort" rather than Mivo. And of much else on a stimulating page.

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Post #23 Posted: Sat May 28, 2011 10:14 am 
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John Fairbairn wrote:
My brain scrambled the references to links above. I have since looked at Bill's page and it seems he was the author of "effortful effort" rather than Mivo. And of much else on a stimulating page.


The Duke paper actually mentions "effortful study". "Effortful effort" is Mivo's phrase, which I like better. :) It brings to mind "effortless effort."

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Post #24 Posted: Sat May 28, 2011 11:27 am 
Oza

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Double scrambled eggs! Yes, the phrase in SL was effortless effort. Kudos back to Mivo. I still like the phrase.

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Post #25 Posted: Sat May 28, 2011 12:20 pm 
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Let me try to show what I mean by a sufficiently detailed course (with an eye to effortful study). Bear in mind that I am guessing here about what might be effective. :)

In terms of training, non-problem books have a problem, it seems to me, with effortful study, because they have diagrams with variations. Not that they should not have such diagrams, but it can be too easy just to read through the variations without the optimal amount of effort. So here is my guess about how diagrams might be used in a book to induce effort on the part of the reader. (GoGOD's GoScorer software is good in this regard, when studying pro games. Go ebooks may be an improvement, as well. :)) BTW, Mr. K's web site ( http://mrkigo.sakura.ne.jp/ksikatuindex.html ) has an excellent introduction to life and death, because he is so thorough.

Here is a set of diagrams aimed at novices in life and death. Life in go is not a simple concept, as the discussions on SL indicate. Here I try to get across a prototypical concept. (The text is not as complete as what would be in a book. :))


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Dead or alive?
$$ -------------------
$$ | . O . O X O O . O |
$$ | O O O O X O O O O |
$$ | X X X X X X X X X |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . |[/go]


In all these diagrams we assume that the Black stones surrounding the White groups are alive and cannot be captured. One of the two White groups in this diagram is alive, and one is dead. Which is which? Why do you think so?


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Capture
$$ -------------------
$$ | . O . O X O O 1 O |
$$ | O O O O X O O O O |
$$ | X X X X X X X X X |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . |[/go]


:b1: can capture the White group on the right. Do you see why Black cannot capture the group on the left?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Dead or alive?
$$ -------------------
$$ | . . O O X O O X . |
$$ | O O O O X O O O O |
$$ | X X X X X X X X X |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . |[/go]


In this diagram the Black stone in the corner can be captured. What is the status of each White group? Alive or dead? Or does it depend on who has the move?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Dead or alive?
$$ -------------------
$$ | X X . O X O . X . |
$$ | O O O O X O O O O |
$$ | X X X X X X X X X |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . |[/go]


How about these groups?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Dead or alive?
$$ -------------------
$$ | . . . O X X . O . |
$$ | O O O O X O O O O |
$$ | X X X X X X X X X |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . |[/go]


How about these?

----

Over the board, I might set up a position and ask the student to kill or capture the White group. During play, positions such as these would arise. By asking status questions, I am implicitly asking for vicarious play, which is the basis of life and death. But I show only one variation, relying upon the imagination and effort of the reader instead of showing others. (Whether this is a good idea or not is another question. ;))

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 Post subject: Re: Anzan
Post #26 Posted: Sun May 29, 2011 8:30 am 
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Ha. "Effortful effort" was a product of my subconscious. ;) I laid awake for quite some time after reading "The Expert Mind" article and pondered the theories as well as the discussion on Bill's SL page. When I woke up, I wrote my post here -- and somehow, "effortful effort" snuck in, in place of "effortful study". When I realised it, only after John's response, I started to quite like it because it expressed what I had in mind much better than the phrase used by the author.

I'm going to give this a whirl, using myself as a test subject. I'll device a study plan for myself and stick to it for three or six months, documenting my observations casually. The study plan will rest on three pillars: tsumego (both the "reading it out" and the overlearning-based "spot the vital point"), playing over pro games (using actual or virtual stones, not just browsing through the game record), playing (few) serious games with computer/database-aided self-analysis with a focus on spotting insufficiencies.

This should cover reading, intuition (tsumego in blocks of 20 and 50), influx of new ideas (replaying pro games), practice and critical analysis necessary for ironing out repeat issues. I had considered including joseki memorization, but I think this area is sort of covered by replaying pro games and analyzing one's own games, plus I don't want this to become a full time job. :) I'll report my findings in half a year, should I actually manage to follow through with it!


This post by Mivo was liked by: Bill Spight
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 Post subject: Re: Anzan
Post #27 Posted: Sun May 29, 2011 9:28 am 
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Mivo wrote:
Ha. "Effortful effort" was a product of my subconscious. ;) I laid awake for quite some time after reading "The Expert Mind" article and pondered the theories as well as the discussion on Bill's SL page. When I woke up, I wrote my post here -- and somehow, "effortful effort" snuck in, in place of "effortful study". When I realised it, only after John's response, I started to quite like it because it expressed what I had in mind much better than the phrase used by the author.

I'm going to give this a whirl, using myself as a test subject. I'll device a study plan for myself and stick to it for three or six months, documenting my observations casually. The study plan will rest on three pillars: tsumego (both the "reading it out" and the overlearning-based "spot the vital point"), playing over pro games (using actual or virtual stones, not just browsing through the game record), playing (few) serious games with computer/database-aided self-analysis with a focus on spotting insufficiencies.

This should cover reading, intuition (tsumego in blocks of 20 and 50), influx of new ideas (replaying pro games), practice and critical analysis necessary for ironing out repeat issues. I had considered including joseki memorization, but I think this area is sort of covered by replaying pro games and analyzing one's own games, plus I don't want this to become a full time job. :) I'll report my findings in half a year, should I actually manage to follow through with it!


Great idea! And good luck. :)

May I encourage you to start a thread here and report once a month or so? For four reasons:

1) Your own motivation. Making intermediate reports gives you regular, achievable goals.

2) Feedback and encouragement from your readers here. (Obviously related to reason #1.)

3) Writing a report is also a learning experience. (Putting out a go newsletter helped me a lot when I was a 3 dan and had no opponent at my level. :))

4) We can learn something from your reports, too. :)

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The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

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