S2 is a must to prevent Ko. Black is very very happy with the amount of territory.

It is one of the happy solutions for black in the dictionary of hamete.

Isn't there a joseki that goes like this? Or perhaps I am mistaken, and this one of the "special case" sequences that is considered normally more favorable for one side?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O O X 3 . |
$$ . . . 8 . . . 4 X O 2 . |
$$ . . . . . . . 6 5 1 7 . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------[/go]

If this is a joseki, then is it really more favorable for black if it goes like this?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . b . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . a 3 . c . |
$$ . . . . . . . O O X . . |
$$ . . . 8 . . . 4 X O 2 . |
$$ . . . . . . . 6 5 1 7 . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------[/go]

Sure, black is a bit higher on the right, and can do things like press at a more effectively. But whereas black is completely solid in the first diagram, in the second diagram white can now approach at b much more easily, due to c. Maybe this isn't enough compensation for white?

@lightvector:

I definitely prefer your first diagram for black. The second one looks like it has a lot of lingering aji to worry about, which reminds me of "Lessons in the Fundamentals of Go" where he talks about preferring the "firmer capture".

_________________
1k KGS

For me, diagram one shows a corner with an amount of territory similiar to a Shimari but it needed five more stones to achieve the same and White has a strong position, too.
In diagram two, Black has to play on the right side, I assume, because otherwise a White pincer there would overconcentrate Black's position. So White has Sente and a lot of Ko threats. Not a bad deal.

_________________
My "guide" to become stronger in Go

I need help.

I am stuck on this joseki like a drug addict. It seems 2ks don't fall for it but 1d's fall for it more. Has it got to do with looking down on weaker players?

I just spoke with my go buddy from 9 years ago. When I mentioned hamete, he knew precisely which one I'm talking about. He is now 4d and I am back down to 2k. Perhaps this joseki is ruining my play. But, it is so fun, I can't stop.

I may need a good beating upside the head before I can stop this madness.

Do you mean to say that white is better there?

It's not exactly fair to say that black needed 5 more stones to achieve the same result, without any further qualification. The relevant thing to keep in mind is the difference between how many plays each side has invested in the corner. If equal, you expect a roughly equal result if neither side has made a mistake, and if one player has invested more, you expect a better result for that player. In that diagram, both players have played an equal number of times, and at least to me, the result looks close to equal (but personally I do slightly favor white, because I feel black is a bit low and cramped, and like white's influence).

In a shimari, black has played two times more than white, so it makes sense that black would get a drastically better result.

I still don't know how I feel about the second diagram though. Positional judgment is definitely not my strong point.

From the Lee Chang-Ho's Punish Trick Move book (roughly translated):

Diagram B above explained as White is too generous. While white is very stable (same as dia a), black's territory has gained more meat (or ballooned).

What's stopping you just not playing it?

I'd like to say that the 1ds falling for it more is because they're stronger, and have more of the attitude 'I won't back down, I'll read my way to a better result'. Doing anything else, such as giving black the corner which is larger than joseki, does not lose many points but is also a way to plateau if you do it too much.

On the other hand, it seems more likely that it's just low sample size and confirmation bias

You get a rush as your opponent attaches and you do the x-cut. My mind rushes and start to wonder what will he do?
There is no rational explanation other than it is like a drug. You are drawn to it.

I think I should have done one point jump instead of 41 M15. Any better moves?

As the text book shows move 24 was an overplay. He played perfect punishment for my hamete up until 23.

Okay, I found an older file from Alexandre Dinerchstein, who says the following:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 1 X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O O X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------[/go]

This is the right move.

If Black resists:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 3 . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 2 1 . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . W X 5 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O O X 4 . |
$$ . . . . . . 8 7 X O O . |
$$ . . . . . . 0 9 6 X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm11
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . O X . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X X 7 . |
$$ . . . . . . . O O X O 9 |
$$ . . . . . . O X X O O . |
$$ . . . . . . O X . X 2 6 |
$$ . . . . . . 4 5 1 . 3 8 |
$$ ----------------------[/go]

Ko and White takes first, so in the opening stage it is most likely that Black will lose the corner. Note that the Hane at O6 ist very important, otherwise Black could capture White in a net, when he cuts at N4.


The best response by Black is:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . 8 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . 6 7 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . 4 5 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O O X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 2 X O O . |
$$ . . . . . . . . 3 X 1 . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------[/go]

Which is considered slighty favourable for White.

_________________
My "guide" to become stronger in Go

Ah, it's my favorite hamete. I must have played it over 300 times, and I can only remember two occasions where someone countered with Alexander's variation (Nick Krempel being one of the two people when I played in the London Open, he said he saw me play it in a previous round and came up with the variation; clever guy).

I think the simplest, strongest way to handle it is to not make the S16-R15 exchange and play P17 if you have the ladder (Eric Dai's suggestion). Yes, White can do a squeeze variation but it's not good for White. Another possibility is to just tenuki from R14 because compared to Q14 it doesn't put as much pressure on your approach stone (Cho Seokbin's suggestion). And going back to lightvector's post, the second diagram is clearly better and is the motive behind the trick play.

And what do you know, here's a game I played just a few minutes ago where I used the hamete and won the game in under 30 moves because he got a little careless:

Response to E5 in Lee Chang-Ho's book.