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 Post subject: Big walls, big moyo --- how to operate?
Post #1 Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 11:26 pm 
Dies with sente

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In my recent game, I had huge walls but I also had un-made standard opening moves. I also had big moyos and needed to figure out how to protect it. Any feedback on this game is appreciated.


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 Post subject: Re: Big walls, big moyo --- how to operate?
Post #2 Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 12:01 am 
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It's usually a bad idea to protect moyo. The aim is to force your opponent to enter it, and making territory chasing him, or making leaning attacks while he tries to live small inside.

Here, you did pretty well : he makes more or less nothing in the center while you make huges terriories on the edges.

You did win easily !

Your opponent looked like an assh*le no ? (he seems to have escaped during the counting)

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 Post subject: Re: Big walls, big moyo --- how to operate?
Post #3 Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 1:53 am 
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16: This is bigger than the normal net, and according to Kageyama the standard response from amateur dan-players. However, it also gives black more forcing moves around the stone, so he considers it better to capture in a clean net like this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

18: I understand you are going for a very large moyo quite fast, but wouldn't it be better to develop like this?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X O X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
This way, there's more possibilities in the corner later on, now it just seems like the black corner is too big. This is high approach exchange is around an even trade when you approach a 3-4 stone, so I feel like Black gets too much when you do it on a 4-4 stone, especially because you lose sente at the end of the sequence, or leave a very big weakness behind. This is just what I think, and I'm only marginally stronger than you it seems, so it would be nice if a stronger player could comment on this.

51: Black playing Tengen can be a bit of a nuisance, for it seems to limit the potential of the white moyo, and it's also not deep enough that it can be captured easily. Remember however that this sort of move is only worth the amount of value black can get from it later on in fighting. Right now it's little more than passing.
52: Your response here is symptomatic for territory-oriented play. You are afraid of losing points, and enclose territory. Territory is not enclosed, it is created through attacking. Therefore you should welcome an invasion, and gain profit from attacking (or even killing) the opponent's stones. To do that, you must make a framework in which that is possible. The way it is now, there is just too much space. If you play a move like this
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . 1 . . . . . X O X X |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O X X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . X O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
There is still room for black to come in, but you'll be able to chase him more effectively.
53: Aha! No peeking ^^
54: You can't really effectively attack the black stones, because of the earlier move 52.
56: I really feel like white should nobi here. Allowing black to have an almost completed ponnuki is unbearable for white.
62: Using influence to enclose territory again. This time, black will have a much harder time trying to live inside, And I can't find a good way for Black to stabilize quickly here. There's a lot of space though.
82: A nice attack on the shape point. But you have to be prepared for Black's response. It can't live directly, and highly depends on the presence of white stones around A or B. I think in this case however, Black should be able to kill it, no matter what. Therefore, an overplay.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . O X . X . |
$$ | . . X O . . . O . . X O O . O O X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . X . X X O . X O X X |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . X O . . . X . . X X . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . X . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X X . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . X O O O O . O X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . X O X X O O X . . |
$$ | . . 2 X . X . . . X . . X O O X . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . a b . . . O O X X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

85: If black hane's from the other side, I don't think white can live.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . O X . X . |
$$ | . . X O . . . O . . X O O . O O X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . X . X X O . X O X X |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . X O . . . X . . X X . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . X . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X X . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . X O O O O . O X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . X O X X O O X . . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . X . . X O O X . . . |
$$ | . 1 O O . . . . . . . O O X X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
I have read out some variations and they all seem to end with white dying. Could a stronger player comment on this?

The rest of the game seems to be mostly tactical issues, so I'll stop here. Tryphon summed it up quite nicely. You can find more info on that here: http://senseis.xmp.net/?DontUseThicknessToMakeTerritory

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 Post subject: Re: Big walls, big moyo --- how to operate?
Post #4 Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 2:00 am 
Dies in gote

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Hi,
I took a look at the first moves of the game.
Some things do jump out.
I hope this is useful and motivating.

Greetings,
Bram Vdb.

Black17 @T16 is not necessary. Black is already alive.
Note: Black loses sente. Now white can also answer this move with T15. T15 is sente! (if black ignores it, the corner becomes a ko).
Later T15 will be sente for both. So it will become an urgent move for both black and white.

Black19 @R6 I think a pincer at R8 would be my first instinct, because it avoids the huge moyo you had during the game.

Black25 @O3 is not a good idea:
If black does not play the crosscut:
then It will help white o4, but will hurt black k4.
If you want to add a stone then black Q2 would be better.

However black DOES play the crosscut:
But the crosscut is unreasonable.
White can just play o3, keeping your groups seperated.
This will kill the black corner or will kill one of the black cutting stones.
The result cannot be good for black.

White28 @M3 is white his first mistake. P3 is better.

Black37 @O5 is a painful mistake. Black throws away his own liberties, but gains nothing.
Black39 @L5 is a reading mistake, L4 would have been correct and would capture the 2 white stones while saving his own.

Black41 @C17 is probably a strategic mistake. White creates a lot of influence. I wonder how black will deal with white his moyo at the top.
Black49 @B13 makes the problem worse, it's unnecessary to play this crawl, it makes white only stronger in the center. (D18 would be usual)

Black51 @K10 is not agressive enough. It's too soft. White wins the game by playing K16

White52 @M13 is a mistake. While trying to secure territory on both sides it does neither of both. This is the time of the game for white to play secure. He is ahead and should finish the game. M13 leaves too many options open.

White64 @N10: Before playing N10, T15 is perhaps better, because it's sente for both players. That means it's a very urgent move.

White70 @L6 is strange timing. not really sente I think, K2 is bigger. Also D18 is very big.
White78 @M6 is strange, there's no danger. This is rather over-protective.

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 Post subject: Re: Big walls, big moyo --- how to operate?
Post #5 Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 8:54 am 
Dies in gote

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Hushfield wrote:
85: If black hane's from the other side, I don't think white can live.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . O X . X . |
$$ | . . X O . . . O . . X O O . O O X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . X . X X O . X O X X |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . X O . . . X . . X X . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . X . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X X . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . X O O O O . O X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . X O X X O O X . . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . X . . X O O X . . . |
$$ | . 1 O O . . . . . . . O O X X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
I have read out some variations and they all seem to end with white dying. Could a stronger player comment on this?


Not exactly a stronger player, but I think W is going to be ok here. B2, B4, F2.

If B plays G3: G2, now A2 and ~J2 look miai to live
If B plays G2: G3 F3 H2 E2 G1 E3 K2. The corner is sacrificed for a position along the bottom, connected to the M3 stones.

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