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Offline Kirby
 Post subject: QQQ
Post #1 Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 6:30 am 
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Redundant was kind enough to inform me that my next post would be my 3000th on L19, and that I may want to do something unique. I'm not sure if it is anything that is that significant, really. It seems pretty arbitrary, to some degree.

But in honor of his conveying this information to me, this post was made simply because it will be my 3000th.

So in honor of 3000, 3k that is, I decided to post a 3k go problem (a "3kyu" problem - "triple Q" - or "QQQ", if you will):
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Black to play
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . X X . . .
$$ | . . . X . O X . .
$$ | . X X O . O X . .
$$ | . X O O . O X . .
$$ | X O . . O . X . .
$$ | . O . X O X . . .
$$ -------------------[/go]


Thank you, eh-hem san-kyu, eh-hem QQQ, to Redundant for letting me know about my 3000th post.

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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: QQQ
Post #2 Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 6:34 am 
Tengen
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First instinct:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Black to play
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . X X . . .
$$ | . . . X 2 O X . .
$$ | . X X O 1 O X . .
$$ | . X O O 4 O X . .
$$ | X O 5 . O 3 X . .
$$ | . O . X O X . . .
$$ -------------------[/go]


But no, that's wrong, due to:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Black to play
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . X X . . .
$$ | . . . X . O X . .
$$ | . X X O 1 O X . .
$$ | . X O O . O X . .
$$ | X O . 2 O . X . .
$$ | . O . X O X . . .
$$ -------------------[/go]


So, presumably it's this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Black to play
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . X X . . .
$$ | . . . X 2 O X . .
$$ | . X X O 4 O X . .
$$ | . X O O 3 O X . .
$$ | X O . 1 O 5 X . .
$$ | . O . X O X . . .
$$ -------------------[/go]


Although this is an amusing resistance too

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Black to play
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . X X . . .
$$ | . . . X 5 O X . .
$$ | . X X O 3 O X . .
$$ | . X O O . O X . .
$$ | X O . 1 O 2 X . .
$$ | . O . X O X 4 . .
$$ -------------------[/go]

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Offline Chew Terr
 Post subject: Re: QQQ
Post #3 Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 7:15 am 
Gosei
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Hey wait, <I'm> supposed to be 3k! Let's give it a shot!
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Black to play
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . X X . . .
$$ | . . . X 2 O X . .
$$ | . X X O 1 O X . .
$$ | . X O O 4 O X . .
$$ | X O 5 . O 3 X . .
$$ | . O . X O X . . .
$$ -------------------[/go]

If I'm right, it's shortage of liberties. This problem was far from obvious, but doable.

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Offline Kirby
 Post subject: Re: QQQ
Post #4 Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 7:18 am 
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Tygem: 커비라고해
Chew Terr wrote:
Hey wait, <I'm> supposed to be 3k! Let's give it a shot!
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Black to play
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . X X . . .
$$ | . . . X 2 O X . .
$$ | . X X O 1 O X . .
$$ | . X O O 4 O X . .
$$ | X O 5 . O 3 X . .
$$ | . O . X O X . . .
$$ -------------------[/go]

If I'm right, it's shortage of liberties. This problem was far from obvious, but doable.


@Chew:
Did you consider this variation?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Black to play
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . X X . . .
$$ | . . . X . O X . .
$$ | . X X O 1 O X . .
$$ | . X O O . O X . .
$$ | X O . 2 O . X . .
$$ | . O . X O X . . .
$$ -------------------[/go]

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Offline Chew Terr
 Post subject: Re: QQQ
Post #5 Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 7:24 am 
Gosei
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@Chew:
Did you consider this variation?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Black to play
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . X X . . .
$$ | . . . X . O X . .
$$ | . X X O 1 O X . .
$$ | . X O O . O X . .
$$ | X O . 2 O . X . .
$$ | . O . X O X . . .
$$ -------------------[/go]

Nope! That's what I get for getting too confident in my answer! Perhaps this, then?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Black to play
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . X X . . .
$$ | . . . X 2 O X . .
$$ | . X X O 4 O X . .
$$ | . X O O 3 O X . .
$$ | X O . 1 O 5 X . .
$$ | . O . X O X . . .
$$ -------------------[/go]

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Offline Kirby
 Post subject: Re: QQQ
Post #6 Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 7:33 am 
Honinbo

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Tygem: 커비라고해
Chew Terr wrote:
Nope! That's what I get for getting too confident in my answer! Perhaps this, then?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Black to play
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . X X . . .
$$ | . . . X 2 O X . .
$$ | . X X O 4 O X . .
$$ | . X O O 3 O X . .
$$ | X O . 1 O 5 X . .
$$ | . O . X O X . . .
$$ -------------------[/go]


Maybe... ;-)

Did you consider this variation?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Black to play
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . X X . . .
$$ | . . . X . O X . .
$$ | . X X O . O X . .
$$ | . X O O . O X . .
$$ | X O W X O . X . .
$$ | . O . X O X . . .
$$ -------------------[/go]

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Offline Chew Terr
 Post subject: Re: QQQ
Post #7 Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 7:41 am 
Gosei
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KGS: Chew
Kirby wrote:
Did you consider this variation?

Maybe... ;-)


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Black to play
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . X X . . .
$$ | . . . X . O X . .
$$ | . X X O . O X . .
$$ | . X O O . O X . .
$$ | X O W X O . X . .
$$ | . O . X O X . . .
$$ -------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Black to play
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . X X . . .
$$ | . . . X . O X . .
$$ | . X X O a O X . .
$$ | . X O O . O X . .
$$ | X O W X O 1 X . .
$$ | . O . X O X . . .
$$ -------------------[/go]

W can't make an eye on the right, and if W captures, black 'a' makes a shortage of liberties to deny the other eye.

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Offline jts
 Post subject: Re: QQQ
Post #8 Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 8:23 am 
Oza
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Wow, that was bad :D
(the pun, not the problem)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ a and b are miai
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . X X . . .
$$ | . . . X 5 O X . .
$$ | . X X O 3 O X . .
$$ | . X O O a O X . .
$$ | X O . 1 O 2 X b .
$$ | . O . X O X 4 . .
$$ -------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Black to play
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . X X . . .
$$ | . . . X . O X . .
$$ | . X X O 2 O X . .
$$ | . X O O . O X . .
$$ | X O . 1 O 3 X . .
$$ | . O . X O X . . .
$$ -------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Black to play
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . X X . . .
$$ | . . . X 2 O X . .
$$ | . X X O 4 O X . .
$$ | . X O O 3 O X . .
$$ | X O . 1 O 5 X . .
$$ | . O . X O X . . .
$$ -------------------[/go]

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Offline Jordus
 Post subject: Re: QQQ
Post #9 Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 1:25 pm 
Site Admin
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Posts: 1125
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Rank: KGS 9k
Universal go server handle: Jordus
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Black to play
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . X X . . .
$$ | . . . X 2 O X . .
$$ | . X X O 1 O X . .
$$ | . X O O . O X . .
$$ | X O 3 . O . X . .
$$ | . O . X O X . . .
$$ -------------------[/go]

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Offline Kirby
 Post subject: Re: QQQ
Post #10 Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 1:30 pm 
Honinbo

Posts: 9552
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Tygem: 커비라고해
Jordus wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Black to play
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . X X . . .
$$ | . . . X 2 O X . .
$$ | . X X O 1 O X . .
$$ | . X O O . O X . .
$$ | X O 3 . O . X . .
$$ | . O . X O X . . .
$$ -------------------[/go]


@Jordus:
Did you consider the following two lines of play?

1.)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Black to play
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . X X . . .
$$ | . . . X 2 O X . .
$$ | . X X O 1 O X . .
$$ | . X O O . O X . .
$$ | X O 3 4 O . X . .
$$ | . O . X O X . . .
$$ -------------------[/go]


2.)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Black to play
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . X X . . .
$$ | . . . X . O X . .
$$ | . X X O 1 O X . .
$$ | . X O O . O X . .
$$ | X O . 2 O . X . .
$$ | . O . X O X . . .
$$ -------------------[/go]

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Offline Jordus
 Post subject: Re: QQQ
Post #11 Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 1:33 pm 
Site Admin
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Posts: 1125
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Universal go server handle: Jordus
Kirby wrote:
Jordus wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Black to play
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . X X . . .
$$ | . . . X 2 O X . .
$$ | . X X O 1 O X . .
$$ | . X O O . O X . .
$$ | X O 3 . O . X . .
$$ | . O . X O X . . .
$$ -------------------[/go]


@Jordus:
Did you consider the following two lines of play?

1.)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Black to play
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . X X . . .
$$ | . . . X 2 O X . .
$$ | . X X O 1 O X . .
$$ | . X O O . O X . .
$$ | X O 3 4 O . X . .
$$ | . O . X O X . . .
$$ -------------------[/go]


2.)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Black to play
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . X X . . .
$$ | . . . X . O X . .
$$ | . X X O 1 O X . .
$$ | . X O O . O X . .
$$ | X O . 2 O . X . .
$$ | . O . X O X . . .
$$ -------------------[/go]


For one...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Black to play 7@1 for capture if white plays 6@a instead black gets the 4 stone group
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . X X . . .
$$ | . . . X 2 O X . .
$$ | . X X O 1 O X . .
$$ | . X O O 6 O X . .
$$ | X O 3 4 O 5 X . .
$$ | . O a X O X . . .
$$ -------------------[/go]


i'll have to get back at you for two...

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Offline Kirby
 Post subject: Re: QQQ
Post #12 Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 1:36 pm 
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Jordus wrote:
...

For one...
If white plays 6@a instead black gets the 4 stone group

@Jordus:
True, but then white still lives with some stones, even though black gets 4 stones. There is a way to kill all of white's stones. Be greedy! :twisted:

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