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Post #81 Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 5:36 pm 
Honinbo
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Both :w36: and the other hane :w1: have quite a few variations,
and they are all non-trivial for me to judge at this point,
so let's take it one move at a time.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$------------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . X . . . . 1 . . . . |
$$ . . . X . . X O . . . |
$$ . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
The pull-back/extension :ws: feels quite heavy and B gets very thick outside:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$------------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . X . . . . 1 0 . . . |
$$ . . . X . . X O @ . . |
$$ . O . . . . 9 X 8 . . |
$$ . . O . . . 7 6 4 2 . |
$$ . . . . . . . X 5 3 . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: 126. EdLee vs Loons
Post #82 Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 6:02 pm 
Gosei
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Naturally. Naturally. I guess go would be pretty boring without surprises.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm36 Leaning towards this
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . O . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . O . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . X . O . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X . . . O . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
Because...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm36
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . a . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X O 2 c . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . O . . . . e X 1 . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . O . . . b 3 . f . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . X d . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . X . O . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X . . . O . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
Any combination of those letters is a headache for me. I think Ed still lives locally and hurts R12, though now I am wondering if I can wholesale kill his corner stones locally without giving him too many forcing moves, as another consideration.

Some probable mistakes:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm36
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . 5 . 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . 6 X O . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . O . . . . 3 X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . O . . . . 4 2 . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . X . O . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X . . . O . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm36
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X O 2 . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . O . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . O . . . . 5 3 . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . X 4 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . X . O . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X . . . O . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


Oh, except my first diagram doesn't even seem to cut him properly.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm36 (sort of problems)
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . O . . . . . X O 0 . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . O . . . . 2 8 9 . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . X 5 3 . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . 7 6 4 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O a . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . X . O . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X . . . O . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
White will play a-ish. Not sure how much better starting on the other side (as per the proverb) is going to be. There is much afoot!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm36
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . O . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . O . . . . 2 5 4 . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . X 7 3 . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . 9 8 6 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . X . O . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X . . . O . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm45 (demonstrative)
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X O 1 3 . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . O . . . . . X O 2 . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . O . . . . X O X 4 |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 5 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 7 . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , 8 9 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . X . O . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X . . . O . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm44
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . 3 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . 4 X O 1 . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . O . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . O . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . 2 X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . X . O . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X . . . O . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


Forgive my preference for diagrams over sgfs, I'll tidy this up later.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm36 So, probable winner then.
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . O . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . O . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . X . O . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X . . . O . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


I think white vs black is conventional for game names, maybe that's just how KGS does it.

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Post #83 Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 7:23 pm 
Honinbo
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Loons, I also name my game files as W-B. Does this mean anyone can rename the thread title?

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 Post subject: Re: 126. EdLee vs Loons
Post #84 Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 3:14 pm 
Gosei
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm36
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . O . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . O . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . X . O . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X . . . O . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

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Last edited by Loons on Sun Jul 10, 2011 2:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #85 Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 6:03 pm 
Honinbo
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Trigger (Loons, I probably shouldn't have hidden it :P ):
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm38
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . O . . . . 1 X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . O . . . . 2 X . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . X . O . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X . . . O . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
(p)
B could have done better; just connect with :b1: and force W to live in the corner.
Then, with :black:(a) and W's weakness at (b), etc., suddenly :wc: is in trouble:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . b . . . . . X . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . a . W . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . W . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . X . O . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X . . . O . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


Last edited by EdLee on Tue Jul 05, 2011 7:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #86 Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 6:08 pm 
Honinbo
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The trigger atari & connect seems forced. Reading the (a) atari, (b) atari, (c) connect... :study:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm38
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . a . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . b X O c . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . O . . . . O X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . O . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: 126. EdLee vs Loons
Post #87 Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 6:53 pm 
Gosei
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Can someone post the first move of Ed's trigger? I can make some guess, but I'd rather not.

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 Post subject: Re: 126. EdLee vs Loons
Post #88 Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 7:11 pm 
Gosei
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Oh, yes, I had rather guessed that. If you play P18 atari next, I extend.

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Post #89 Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:17 pm 
Honinbo
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If :wc: second-line atari and :bc: extends,
then B makes the big ponnuki in sente with :b10:; seems ridiculously good for B:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$----------------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . X . . . 1 W 3 9 7 . |
$$ . . . . . X 4 B X O 2 6 . |
$$ . . . O . . . . O X O 5 0 |
$$ . . . . O . . . . X X 8 . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . O . . |[/go]
Variation: W also ends in gote, and B still looks good.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$----------------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . X . . . 4 W . 1 . . |
$$ . . . . . X . B X O 3 5 . |
$$ . . . O . . . . O X O 2 . |
$$ . . . . O . . . . X X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . O . . |[/go]
Strange variation: doesn't look too good for W:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W :b6: connects at :wt:
$$----------------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . X . 8 9 1 W 4 . . . |
$$ . 0 . . . X 3 B X Q 2 . . |
$$ . . . O . . 7 5 O X O . . |
$$ . . . . O . . . . X X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . O . . |[/go]
So after the 2nd-line atari :w1:, B seems to do well thanks to the two :bs: stones:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$----------------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . # . . . . 1 . . . . |
$$ . . . . . # . 2 X O . . . |
$$ . . . O . . . . O X O . . |
$$ . . . . O . . . . X X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . O . . |[/go]

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Post #90 Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 5:02 pm 
Honinbo
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm40
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . 1 X O . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . O . . . . O X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . O . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . X . O . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X . . . O . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
See previous post about the 2nd-line atari instead of this atari, :w40:.
More variations to follow.
(p)
Better (tesuji):
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X 1 . X O . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . O . . . . O X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . O . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |[/go]
If :b2:, then :w3: and B still has to go back to fix the corner with (a) etc.:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X 1 . X O a . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . O . . 3 2 O X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . O . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: 126. EdLee vs Loons
Post #91 Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 5:59 pm 
Gosei
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm40
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . 2 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X O . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . O . . . . O X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . O . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . X . O . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X . . . O . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

I must confess I don't know joseki here at all, but unless Ed has some serious tech against Q15, I don't feel uncomfortable. Some moves look a bit scary, but he seems always one move behind if trying anything whimsical (famous last words).


Hmm.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm40
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . 3 2 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X 9 O X O . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . O . . 5 4 8 X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . O . . 7 6 X X . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . X . O . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X . . . O . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm40 I always believed white to be dead here, maybe R12 saves it.
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . 4 2 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X O . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . O . . . . O X O 5 . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . O . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . X . O . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X . . . O . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

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Post #92 Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 8:06 pm 
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Double-checking the :w1: push:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . 1 X 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 5 . . X . O X W 4 . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . O . . 3 . O X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . O . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Variation. Either way, the general idea is to try to make the :bc: stones awkward,
and the :ws: stones efficient.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . B . . . 1 X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . B 5 O X O . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . @ . . 3 2 O X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . @ . . 4 . X X . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

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Post #93 Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 8:15 pm 
Honinbo
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm42
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . 1 X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X O . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . O . . . . O X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . O . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . X . O . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X . . . O . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: 126. EdLee vs Loons
Post #94 Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 8:47 pm 
Gosei
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm42
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X O . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . O . . . 2 O X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . O . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . X . O . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X . . . O . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


Oops, wishful thinking. Too late to take it back now, I guess :P
Playing moves quickly :(

If someone would care to post a "default" sequence for Ed's probe, I'd be much obliged.

Edit 2: Diagrams.

Hmm, also not desirable:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm42 If black tenuki, a b c
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . O X 2 b c . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X O a . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . O . . . 3 O X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . O . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . X . O . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X . . . O . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

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Last edited by Loons on Sun Jul 10, 2011 2:27 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #95 Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 8:56 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm44
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X O . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . O . . 1 X O X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . O . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . X . O . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X . . . O . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
Forced.

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 Post subject: Re: 126. EdLee vs Loons
Post #96 Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 9:00 pm 
Gosei
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm44 Prisoners: :w1:
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X O . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . O . . O X . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . O . . . 2 X X . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . X . O . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X . . . O . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Okay, we are playing my diagram from before. Maybe I'm seeing ghosts.

What I was briefly afraid of:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm44 :w1:
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . O X 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X O . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . O . . . X O X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . O . . . 2 X X . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . X . O . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X . . . O . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


I'm going to have to live on top, but ideally in a way that eats at Ed's points.

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Last edited by Loons on Sun Jul 10, 2011 2:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #97 Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 9:55 pm 
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Pondering the ko and other variations.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$----------------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . X . . . O X . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X 2 O X O . . . |
$$ . . . O . . O X . X O . . |
$$ . . . . O . . 1 X X X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
The capture on :b45: is a bit unexpected (and interesting).
I was expecting the second diagram in Post #92 -- B extending instead.

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Post #98 Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 12:16 am 
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A thought.
If :w1: atari and :b2: connects...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$----------------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . X . . . O X . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X 3 O X O . . . |
$$ . . . O . . O X 2 X O . . |
$$ . . . . O . . 1 Y X X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
...B seems to get an inferior result to having extended instead:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Var. from Post #92
$$----------------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . X . . . O X . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X 1 O X O . . . |
$$ . . . O . . O X W X O . . |
$$ . . . . O . . B . X X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
So maybe connecting at :b2: is not a good option for B.

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Post #99 Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 2:30 am 
Gosei
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm44 :w1:
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . # . . . Q B . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . # . Q B O . . . |
$$ | . . W W . . . . . Q . . Q B . B O . . |
$$ | . . Z . . . . . . . Q . . . B B B . . |
$$ | . . Z W W . . . . . . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . . Z . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . @ . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . Z , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Y . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . Y P Y . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Y P . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . Y . Y . P . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X . . . P . . . P . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . P . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
Every group has a nemesis, with just a little imagination. Except white's x group has a corner, and white's O group uses half as many stones. Maybe not that similar.

Unrelatedly, a title of "a thought" fills me with fear of:

Loons played that because he misread this.

Edit:
It might be more interesting to compare groups by who's corner it started as and how late they were played, which match quite well for our board.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm44 :w1:
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . # . . . Q B . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . # . Q B Q . . . |
$$ | . . W W . . . . . W . . Q B Q B Q . . |
$$ | . . Y . . . . . . . Q . . . B B B . . |
$$ | . . Y W W . . . . . . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . . Y . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . @ . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . Y , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X P X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X P . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . X . P . |
$$ | . . O . . Z . . Z . . . P . . . P . . |
$$ | . . . Z . . . . . . . . . . P . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Something else that becomes very evident, I feel, is that Q14 enclosure was a much worse move than K16, if I haven't said that already.

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 Post subject: Re:
Post #100 Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 7:56 am 
Judan
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EdLee wrote:
A thought.
...


I agree. Definitely.

Loons has some big decision to make here, one that will affect the course of the game.

1)Should he try to save M2? If he can, the surrounding white stones are eyeless. If he can't they live easily.

2) Should he let white have the corner, and make territory down the side? Or should he kill the corner?

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