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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: 127. ez4u vs topazg
Post #181 Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 1:55 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm121 Prisoners: :b2: :w1:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . X X . . . X . X O O . O O O . |
$$ | . O X X O . X . . . . . X O . X O X . |
$$ | . O O O O . O O . , X . X O . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . X O . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X . . O O O . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , O X X . . , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O O O X . X X O O . . . 3 . O X . . |
$$ | O . O X X X O O X . X . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . O X . X . O X X . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . O . O . . . X X 1 2 O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . O O X O O X O . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . O , X O O X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Committed ...
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Offline EdLee
 Post subject:
Post #182 Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 5:24 pm 
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(For beginners, mostly.) B is trying hard to make eyes here in this fight,
so he decided to tolerate the broken shapes from his last 3 moves:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm121
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , O X X . . , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O O O X . X X O O . . . B @ O X . . |
$$ | O . O X X X O O X . X . . . @ B X . . |
$$ | . O X . X . O X X . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . O . O . . . B X Y @ O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . @ @ X O @ Y O . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . O , B O O X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline Loons
 Post subject: Re: 127. ez4u vs topazg
Post #183 Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 5:37 pm 
Gosei
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Charge of the light brigade is such a good poem. We've even got our own little valley of death.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm121 Prisoners: :b2: :w1:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . X X . . . X . X O O . O O O . |
$$ | . O X X O . X . . . . . X O . X O X . |
$$ | . O O O O . O O . , X . X O . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . X @ @ . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X @ X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . X @ . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X . . @ @ @ . . . @ X . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . @ @ X . |
$$ | . . X , O X X . . , . . . . . @ X . . |
$$ | . O O O X . X X @ @ . . . 3 . @ X . . |
$$ | O . O X X X O O X . X . . . @ X X . . |
$$ | . O X . X . O X X . . . . . @ . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . O . O . . . X X 1 2 O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . O O X O O X O . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . O , X O O X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

How many will make it back?

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Offline hyperpape
 Post subject: Re:
Post #184 Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 6:32 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm121
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , O X X . . , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O O O X . X X O O . . . # @ O X . . |
$$ | O . O X X X O O X . X . . . @ # X . . |
$$ | . O X . X . O X X . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . O . O . . . B X Y @ O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . @ @ X O @ Y O . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . O , B O O X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


It seems like these three "broken stones" are not at all alike. With :bc:, playing that move induces White to break Black's shape and. So the broken shape shows that Black is giving up a lot. But :bt: and :bs: were forcing moves after White had already sealed in their companion stones. There were already three stones when Black added :bt: and they were already cut off. What insight does talking about the broken shape give here?

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Offline jts
 Post subject: Re: 127. ez4u vs topazg
Post #185 Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 7:10 pm 
Oza
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@hyperpape

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cBm121
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , O X X . . , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O O O X . X X O O . . . # @ O X . . |
$$ | O . O X X X O O X . X . . . @ # X . . |
$$ | . O X . X . O X X . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . O . O . . . B X Y @ O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . @ @ X O @ Y O . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . O , B O O X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

As they say, you shouldn't play close to thickness. This sort of broken shape is an extreme case of playing close to thickness.

The bad effects of a broken shape don't depend on order of play. In general you get a broken shape because you play two stones and then, due to some miscalculations, are forced to permit the opponent to play two consecutive moves, breaking the shape. In this case, there was already a white wall in place, but unfortunate circumstances compel topazg to play kikashi next to the wall.

Whichever move order creates the broken shape, the immediate sequence which creates the broken shape may be best for both sides, but the situation which necessitates the broken shape is bad for the side that is saddled with the broken shape. (It's the same with empty triangles. [Made-up numbers ahead.] 60% of the time, empty triangles are played by beginners who don't know any better. 35% of the time, the third stone in the empty triangle is necessary, but the sequence leading up to the empty triangle was somehow suboptimal. 5% of the time, the empty triangle is genuinely a great move.)
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Offline EdLee
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Post #186 Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 7:11 pm 
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hyperpape,
hyperpape wrote:
It seems like these three "broken stones" are not at all alike.
Not all broken shapes are bad, either; here's one from a basic joseki:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . X O . . . . . ,
$$ | . . X O @ B . O . .
$$ | . . X B @ . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ ---------------------[/go]

Or, if a broken shape kills a 50-stone group to win a game, it can even be brilliant.
Same with the empty triangle and other dumpling shapes.
hyperpape wrote:
What insight does talking about the broken shape give here?
From my experience there are quite a few 1d's or even 2d's who still don't understand broken shapes.

Just like when we all first learned about the basic atari, or the empty triangle, etc.,
the first step to studying broken shapes is to be able to see (sight) them. So I noted (For beginners, mostly).

I thought it's interesting that the local situation got topazg
to make FOUR broken shapes in a row (starting with :black:117- :white:118).
They may or may not affect the local fight; we'll find out soon enough.
But the first step for beginners (and even a few others) is to see them.
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Offline hyperpape
 Post subject: Re: 127. ez4u vs topazg
Post #187 Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 7:45 pm 
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@EdLee Thanks.

@jts
I think the way order of moves matters is in what it tells you. If you play out a sequence, and end with a broken shape, that is a cost of the sequence. In this case, two of the three broken shapes were there because black played forcing moves against white, but the broken shape was made along with a stone that had been on the board for a long time. You can't say that's the broken shape is a cost of the present sequence.

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Offline jts
 Post subject: Re: 127. ez4u vs topazg
Post #188 Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 9:43 pm 
Oza
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hyperpape wrote:
I think the way order of moves matters is in what it tells you. If you play out a sequence, and end with a broken shape, that is a cost of the sequence. In this case, two of the three broken shapes were there because black played forcing moves against white, but the broken shape was made along with a stone that had been on the board for a long time. You can't say that's the broken shape is a cost of the present sequence.


I don't think the order of the moves matters a huge amount.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cBm121
$$ | . . . . .
$$ | . O . . .
$$ | . X X . .
$$ | . . O . .
$$ | . . . . .
$$ | . . . . .
$$ | . . X . .
$$ | . O X O .
$$ | . . X . .
$$ | . . . . .
$$ | . . . . .[/go]


No matter what order the stones were played in, black's stones are intrinsically working together more efficiently. He can help all of his stones without harming the others, and they share liberties. White, on the other hand, can only help one stone, leaving the other to its fate. I don't think the order of the moves matters a great deal. There's no order you can play them in that will make the white stones share liberties. On a related note:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cBm121
$$ | . . . . .
$$ | . W . . .
$$ | . X X . .
$$ | . . X . .
$$ | . . X . .
$$ | . . X . .
$$ | . . X . .
$$ | . . X W .
$$ | . . X . .
$$ | . . . . .
$$ | . . . . .[/go]


We'd all agree that the :wc: stones are in an awful place. W really shouldn't have played them so close to thickness. But walls don't spring out of nowhere.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cBm121
$$ | . . . . .
$$ | . O . . .
$$ | . B X . .
$$ | . W X . .
$$ | . O X . .
$$ | . O X . .
$$ | . O X . .
$$ | . W B O .
$$ | . O X . .
$$ | . O . . .
$$ | . . . . .[/go]


It's most likely that the wall which W suddenly needs to play close to was formed in an exchange where each side got a string of stones. So analyzing broken shape, playing close to thickness, and the efficiency of the :bc: stones in the marked pairs seems to me to be closely related, and all very important. But what do I know? :)

(Of course, this is different from when a beginner plays a pre-peeped jump, and immediately gets a broken shape. There, to see that he's using his stones inefficiently, he has to read two moves ahead. When I get broken shape, normally there are multi-pronged threats and ataris involved. I could see that I was using my stones inefficiently if I could read 5 moves ahead. To predict that a territory-influence exchange will result in a need to play kikashi stones adjacent to the wall to make life for a weak group requires much stronger reading, but it's fundamentally the same kind of analysis: the moves I'm playing here eventually become inefficient, so I shouldn't play here.)
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Offline ez4u
 Post subject: Re: 127. ez4u vs topazg
Post #189 Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 9:55 pm 
Oza
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[go]$$Bcm121 Prisoners: :b2: :w1:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . X X . . . X . X O O . O O O . |
$$ | . O X X O . X . . . . . X O . X O X . |
$$ | . O O O O . O O . , X . X O . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . X O . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X . . O O O . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , O X X . . , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O O O X . X X O O . . . 3 4 O X . . |
$$ | O . O X X X O O X . X . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . O X . X . O X X . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . O . O . . . X X 1 2 O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . O O X O O X O . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . O , X O O X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Graham, I accept and connect.
Fundamentally I think that the :b21: / :w22: exchange helps White by creating future shortage of liberty problems for the Black stones. That said, the situation looks very tense to me. I expect Black to continue at :b1: below...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . X X . . . X . X O O . O O O . |
$$ | . O X X O . X . . . . . X O . X O X . |
$$ | . O O O O . O O . , X . X O . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . e X . X O . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X . d O O O . 4 5 O X . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . 7 1 6 O O X . |
$$ | . . X , O X X . . , c . 3 2 . O X . . |
$$ | . O O O X . X X O O b . 8 X W O X . . |
$$ | O . O X X X O O X . X . a . O X X . . |
$$ | . O X . X . O X X . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . O . O . . . X X X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . O O X O O X O . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . O , X O O X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Now what? My first thought was "a" (actually I also considered simply "a" without connecting at the marked stone - if Black cut, White could push up in sente and easily trade the five stones for the whole center. However, Black does not have to cut immediately and the situation is just too complex to figure out. My current expectation is to answer :b1: with :w2: etc. and cut at :w8:. I am not sure what Black will choose next. Note that Black "b" threatens to connect to the left by capturing my two stones. I pretty much have to answer around "c" to keep things going (The patzer's lament, "If only I had traded "d" for "e" earlier!" :scratch: I honestly do not know what happens here, but it seems unlikely that we will need to play out the yose. :rambo:

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Offline Loons
 Post subject: Re: 127. ez4u vs topazg
Post #190 Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 10:11 pm 
Gosei
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@jts
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ . . . O . .
$$ . . X X O O
$$ . 1 2 O X .
$$ . . X . X .
$$ . . . . . .[/go]

I think all of us will agree this can be a good move* and is not necessarily indicative of a mistake, though it contains a conventionally broken shape for white. I think slight differences in our semantics are the root of any "disagreements" here.

Anyway, so topazg was right, ez4u wasn't going to ignore that peep (while I was writing this...)

Edit:
*good and not especially rare

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Offline perceval
 Post subject: Re: 127. ez4u vs topazg
Post #191 Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 11:54 pm 
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i think i may have a too restricted idea of the broken shape, or at least a too restricted idea about when its bad.
To me, It is bad when it allows spliting attacks between 2 unsettled group, or generally when the 2 splitted groups are attackable.
To me it not a big deal if either,
both side are unconditionnaly alive,
or one of the side can be treated lightly, or is even already dead (loons example).

This seems to me to be the case here for topazg move so here even tough i see the broken shape it would not bother me to play it.
Seems that it should bother me.
I suppose it can give forcing move to W, or create shortage of liberties as ez4u mentionned

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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: 127. ez4u vs topazg
Post #192 Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 11:12 am 
Tengen
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm121 Prisoners: :b2: :w1:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . X X . . . X . X O O . O O O . |
$$ | . O X X O . X . . . . . X O . X O X . |
$$ | . O O O O . O O . , X . X O . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . X O . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X . . O O O . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . 5 . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , O X X . . , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O O O X . X X O O . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | O . O X X X O O X . X . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . O X . X . O X X . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . O . O . . . X X X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . O O X O O X O . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . O , X O O X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The finale approaches. I chose against the other move because I think this makes me cry a little:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm121 Prisoners: :b2: :w1:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . X X . . . X . X O O . O O O . |
$$ | . O X X O . X . . . . . X O . X O X . |
$$ | . O O O O . O O . , X . X O . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . X O . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X . . O O O . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . 6 . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , O X X . . , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O O O X . X X O O 5 . . X O O X . . |
$$ | O . O X X X O O X . X . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . O X . X . O X X . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . O . O . . . X X X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . O O X O O X O . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . O , X O O X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline ez4u
 Post subject: Re: 127. ez4u vs topazg
Post #193 Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 4:37 pm 
Oza
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm121 Prisoners: :b2: :w1:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . X X . . . X . X O O . O O O . |
$$ | . O X X O . X . . . . . X O . X O X . |
$$ | . O O O O . O O . , X . X O . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . X O . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X . . O O O . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , O X X . . , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O O O X . X X O O . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | O . O X X X O O X . X . 6 . O X X . . |
$$ | . O X . X . O X X . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . O . O . . . X X X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . O O X O O X O . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . O , X O O X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I was back and forth in my mind all day yesterday over what to play here. I still have no clue what is best. I went back to this :w6: because I think it is less complex.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Prisoners: :b2: :w1:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . X X . . . X . X O O . O O O . |
$$ | . O X X O . X . . . . . X O . X O X . |
$$ | . O O O O . O O . , X . X O . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . X O . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X . . O O O . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , O X X . . , a . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O O O X . X X O O 4 . . X O O X . . |
$$ | O . O X X X O O X . X . 1 . O X X . . |
$$ | . O X . X . O X X b . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . O . O . 3 2 X X X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . O O X O O X O . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . O , X O O X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Basically I concluded that Black probably escapes or lives while White captures a couple of stones in order to connect and live. Next I expect Black to exchange :b2: for :w3: and then play :b4:. I do not think I have time to answer :b4: with "a", my right side is too weak. I probably need to secure my connection while Black captures the two center White stones. If Black plays at "b" instead of :b4:, I will not answer it. This leaves the possibility that Black will capture :w3: in sente and end up living in the center. That is OK as long as I am safe as well.

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Dave Sigaty
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21
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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: 127. ez4u vs topazg
Post #194 Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 12:07 am 
Tengen
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm121 Prisoners: :b2: :w1:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . X X . . . X . X O O . O O O . |
$$ | . O X X O . X . . . . . X O . X O X . |
$$ | . O O O O . O O . , X . X O . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . X O . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X . . O O O . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , O X X . . , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O O O X . X X O O a . c X O O X . . |
$$ | O . O X X X O O X . X . 6 d O X X . . |
$$ | . O X . X . O X X . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . O . O . . b X X X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . O O X O O X O . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . O , X O O X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Considering one of these. I think "c" and "d" are just foolish, as I don't have time to attack the right side yet. "a" looks like the most logical way of making miai of building strength and escaping, but I need to read whether I can get "b" in first - I think I can, but if it's not sente I'm in a lot of trouble.

The purpose of getting "b" isn't to kill the 4 white stones of course, it's to up the liberties and shape of my own 4 to make his right side group suffer and squirm for a little bit longer.

I wondered if Dave would play this move :(
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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: 127. ez4u vs topazg
Post #195 Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 1:25 am 
Tengen
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm121 Prisoners: :b2: :w1:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . X X . . . X . X O O . O O O . |
$$ | . O X X O . X . . . . . X O . X O X . |
$$ | . O O O O . O O . , X . X O . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . X O . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X . . O O O . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , O X X . . , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O O O X . X X O O . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | O . O X X X O O X . X . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . O X . X . O X X . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . O . O . . 7 X X X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . O O X O O X O . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . O , X O O X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Oh well, this is, as the professionals say, "looking for a place to resign". The loss at the bottom is big enough that unless I kill something, I'm about 15 points behind going into to yose - if Dave gets sente _as well_, I'm going to resign. If I get sente instead, I'll play out my sente endgame, and count, and unless I'm 5 points behind or better, I'll resign when he takes sente back.

I decided on this move because the shape here for my 4 stones sucks enormously because of the marked White stone, so I really have no choice if I want any belief that the fight isn't over yet:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm121 Prisoners: :b2: :w1:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . X X . . . X . X O O . O O O . |
$$ | . O X X O . X . . . . . X O . X O X . |
$$ | . O O O O . O O . , X . X O . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . X O . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X . . O O O . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , O X X . . , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O O O X . X X O O 7 . . X O O X . . |
$$ | O . O X X X O O X . X . W . O X X . . |
$$ | . O X . X . O X X . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . O . O . . 8 X X X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . O O X O O X O . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . O , X O O X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline ez4u
 Post subject: Re: 127. ez4u vs topazg
Post #196 Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 1:48 am 
Oza
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Posts: 2414
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KGS: ez4u
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm121 Prisoners: :b2: :w1:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . X X . . . X . X O O . O O O . |
$$ | . O X X O . X . . . . . X O . X O X . |
$$ | . O O O O . O O . , X . X O . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . X O . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X . . O O O . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , O X X . . , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O O O X . X X O O 8 . . X O O X . . |
$$ | O . O X X X O O X . X . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . O X . X . O X X . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . O . O . . 7 X X X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . O O X O O X O . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . O , X O O X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

For two days basically I have thought about this position. As mentioned in my previous post, I kept thinking that his :b27: was sente against my four stones. Today it suddenly occurred to me that it just isn't so. I do not think that he can force life with plays against my stones. He had to play :b27: at 28. I think that I win from here. Let's see if I have missed something...

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Dave Sigaty
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21
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Offline EdLee
 Post subject:
Post #197 Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 2:24 am 
Honinbo
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Dave,
ez4u wrote:
I still have no clue what is best.
I like this very very much. :bow:
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Offline ez4u
 Post subject: Re:
Post #198 Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 2:46 am 
Oza
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EdLee wrote:
Dave,
ez4u wrote:
I still have no clue what is best.
I like this very very much. :bow:

I think this solves all my shortage of liberty problems and fixes the connection to my upper-side stones. I think that I overplayed in the center, but Graham stumbled just now and may have let me off the hook. I am looking forward to the analysis.

I kept imagining something like this.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm121 Prisoners: :b2: :w1:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . X X . . . X . X O O . O O O . |
$$ | . O X X O . X . . . . . X O . X O X . |
$$ | . O O O O . O O . , X . X O . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . X O . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X . . O O O . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , O X X . . , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O O O X . X X O O O 2 . X O O X . . |
$$ | O . O X X X O O X . X 1 O . O X X . . |
$$ | . O X . X . O X X 9 . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . O . O 7 . X X X X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O 6 5 3 O O X O O X O . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . O 4 X O O X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . 8 . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


However, I can answer :b5: with :w6: below and then :b9: with :w10:. After :w10: the capture/recapture does not create an eye. Black is dead....

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . X X . . . X . X O O . O O O . |
$$ | . O X X O . X . . . . . X O . X O X . |
$$ | . O O O O . O O . , X . X O . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . X O . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X . . O O O . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , O X X . . , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O O O X . X X O O O 2 . X O O X . . |
$$ | O . O X X X O O X . X 1 O . O X X . . |
$$ | . O X . X . O X X . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . O . O 6 7 X X X X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O 9 5 3 O O X O O X O . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . 0 O 4 X O O X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . 8 . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Dave Sigaty
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21
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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: 127. ez4u vs topazg
Post #199 Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 3:29 am 
Tengen
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I resign :)

Many thanks for a very entertaining game. I've spent the last few moves desperately trying to recover ground, in the hope I can force responses before salvaging what little I could get back, however, you keep responding too strongly!

It's been a genuine pleasure, and congrats on the win.

My gut feeling about moves that I'm fairly confident were poor:

A:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . O . , X . X O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . . C . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . 5 O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I think pushing again is sente, and makes a relatively important local difference to my strength and shape. There is a flipside that it increases your strength too, so I'm not entirely sure, but I felt like I tenuki'd too fast.


B:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . X O O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . X O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . O . . O O . , X . X O . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . X O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O 9 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , X . O C . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The game losing move in my opinion, if ever there was one. I'll never tenuki this again, it was definitely the more urgent fight. Admittedly, I hadn't expected you to pirouette up the right hand side like a highly trained ballerina, but at the end of the sequence it was clear I'd gone wrong somewhere, and this move is the logical culprit in my eyes.


C:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . X O O . O O O . |
$$ | . . C . . . X . . . . . X O . X O X . |
$$ | . . 7 O . . O O . , X . X O . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . X O . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O O O . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , X . O X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I played the 3-3 because, for some reason, I felt you had to block on the other side to where you played, and the result would be the same as this move. In hindsight, I should have stuck with this (my original idea) as it may allow me to settle my two stones on a larger scale, or alternatively get a half decent corner in some semblance of sente.


D:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . X O O . O O O . |
$$ | . . C . . . X . . . . . X O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . O . . O O . , X . X O . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . X O . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O O O . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , X . O X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I also have a strong suspicion that this side was simply more urgent than the top left, especially as my followups are reasonably interesting if you choose to secure the top left. This was, as far as I can see, the second game losing mistake I made.


And the only White move that I can think of that I would dare to criticise, as you simply outplayed me far too much to feel strongly about any of your other moves (apart from maybe "how did he do that??"):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . X O O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . . 2 . X . . . . . X O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . O . . C O . , X . X O . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . X O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I didn't think this move gained you enough - I thought your H16 stone was light, and I sort of expected you just to secure the corner. Is this idea of mine bad?


Once the fighting broke out in the middle, I was simply behind. When you made your comment about not being able to just play out the yose I was surprised - I actually think you were far enough ahead that you could, but maybe I'm mistaken. By the latter end of the battle, I either had to kill the group on the right, or the 7 stones in the middle plus saving all my centre stones to have a chance. I figured responding differently to you pulling out the stone in the lower right would simply leave me too far behind at best, so I may as well stake the game on a battle with some potential to score a coup.

I'd be interested in any thoughts of yours, including on bits I did that you thought were wrong that I overlooked.

Thanks again for a fantastic and interesting game :)

This post by topazg was liked by 4 people: cdybeijing, Chew Terr, Jedo, lorill
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Offline cdybeijing
 Post subject: Re: 127. ez4u vs topazg
Post #200 Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 3:36 am 
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