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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Dictionary of Modern Fuseki - problem 4
Post #1 Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 7:32 pm 
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I've been reading "A Dictionary of Modern Fuseki - The Korean Style" from Kisedo. ( It is heavy on diagrams, with little connective text. But if you work at it, you can get some of the idea of what is going on. )

There are problems in the back of the book. I'm starting on them, to see if I have really learned anything. I invite others to join me. ( I took a break of a few month, but now I'm back at it )

Which is better for white's next move, 'a' or 'b'?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . a . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . b . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . X . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . X . O . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Offline Redundant
 Post subject: Re: Dictionary of Moder Fuseki - problem 4
Post #2 Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 7:33 pm 
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Offline hyperpape
 Post subject: Re: Dictionary of Moder Fuseki - problem 4
Post #3 Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 7:50 pm 
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White. That's pretty lazy.

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Offline daniel_the_smith
 Post subject: Re: Dictionary of Moder Fuseki - problem 4
Post #4 Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 8:36 pm 
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If those are the options, then

I will play 'b' and wonder how anyone could even think about playing in another area of the board.

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Offline lovely
 Post subject: Re: Dictionary of Moder Fuseki - problem 4
Post #5 Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 8:54 pm 
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daniel_the_smith wrote:
If those are the options, then

I will play 'b' and wonder how anyone could even think about playing in another area of the board.


I agree completely. It's the old adage of "urgent points before big points".
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Offline Dusk Eagle
 Post subject: Re: Dictionary of Moder Fuseki - problem 4
Post #6 Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 7:10 am 
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'b', because if black gets it both white groups start to look thin. 'b' gives black one weak group vs white's one weak group, but white's at least has a base already.

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Offline moonrabbit
 Post subject: Re: Dictionary of Moder Fuseki - problem 4
Post #7 Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 9:13 am 
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Maybe I shouldn't admit that I would play 'a' in this position. :-?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . a . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . b . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . Y . c . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . Y . @ . . @ . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


To my eye, after White 'b', Black 'c', and white's two stone group :ws: is in trouble. It seems difficult to attack Black's two stones :bt: profitably because White is weak locally. So I would prefer to take a big point and build influence towards the center, indirectly attacking :bt:.

Putting it another way, as Black I probably wouldn't play 'b' as it doesn't seem to attack anything severely, but I would certainly play in the vicinity of 'a', reducing the influence of White's upper right group, and building some influence to help with the fight on the bottom. So White should take the good point on the top.
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Offline hyperpape
 Post subject: Re: Dictionary of Moder Fuseki - problem 4
Post #8 Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 9:30 am 
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@moonrabbit
I too was indecisive. But I think the key point is Dusk Eagle's--it's about keeping White's groups a little stronger. I personally was hung up on lacking a good attack that I could see, but the stone still has to keep you a little stronger, even if you can't really attack.

Maybe you can attack--I'm not good at attacking, honestly.

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Offline Psychee
 Post subject: Re: Dictionary of Moder Fuseki - problem 4
Post #9 Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 9:37 am 
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When being ask 'a' or 'b', I'd say 'b'. But in real game, I think i'll play 'a'.

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Offline Psychee
 Post subject: Re: Dictionary of Moder Fuseki - problem 4
Post #10 Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 9:40 am 
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moonrabbit wrote:
Maybe I shouldn't admit that I would play 'a' in this position. :-?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . a . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . b . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . Y . c . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . Y . @ . . @ . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


To my eye, after White 'b', Black 'c', and white's two stone group :ws: is in trouble. It seems difficult to attack Black's two stones :bt: profitably because White is weak locally. So I would prefer to take a big point and build influence towards the center, indirectly attacking :bt:.

Putting it another way, as Black I probably wouldn't play 'b' as it doesn't seem to attack anything severely, but I would certainly play in the vicinity of 'a', reducing the influence of White's upper right group, and building some influence to help with the fight on the bottom. So White should take the good point on the top.


I'm actually thinking why don't white play 'c' and then 'a'?

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Offline Dusk Eagle
 Post subject: Re: Dictionary of Moder Fuseki - problem 4
Post #11 Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 9:49 am 
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I was indecisive too, until I pictured a black stone at 'b' :)

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Offline moonrabbit
 Post subject: Re: Dictionary of Moder Fuseki - problem 4
Post #12 Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 11:54 am 
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Psychee wrote:
moonrabbit wrote:
Maybe I shouldn't admit that I would play 'a' in this position. :-?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . a . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . b . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . Y . c . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . Y . @ . . @ . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


To my eye, after White 'b', Black 'c', and white's two stone group :ws: is in trouble. It seems difficult to attack Black's two stones :bt: profitably because White is weak locally. So I would prefer to take a big point and build influence towards the center, indirectly attacking :bt:.

Putting it another way, as Black I probably wouldn't play 'b' as it doesn't seem to attack anything severely, but I would certainly play in the vicinity of 'a', reducing the influence of White's upper right group, and building some influence to help with the fight on the bottom. So White should take the good point on the top.


I'm actually thinking why don't white play 'c' and then 'a'?


White 'c', Black 'b' just induces black to get stronger (pushing from behind.) It seems better to leave that exchange unplayed for the moment. Of course, White first at 'a' lets Black play first on the bottom, but then you have the big point on top.

Also, the lower right enclosure has a lot of bad aji in this position, so W can probably use that to either live locally with the two stone group or inside the corner. I'm not sure exactly what sequences are best there, though. Maybe leaning at P5 is okay if black takes 'b'.

Another thing to think about is that the last big fuseki point (after 'a') is the approach/enclosure in the upper left at C15. Whoever gets sente to play there should be happy, I think.
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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Dictionary of Moder Fuseki - problem 4
Post #13 Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 1:54 pm 
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I have not been able to formulate a coherent reason for either one being better. So I finally peeked.

Dictionary of Modern Fuseki wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc The correct answer.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , 3 . . . . 1 . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . X . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . X . O . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


White's extension to 1 is the key point. With the sequence to 3, white maintains the territorial balance. This is a good result for white.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Failure
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . . . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . 1 . 4 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . X . 2 . . 3 . . X . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . X . O . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


White 1 is not reasonable. Black 2 and 4 are good moves, leaving white's stones at the bottom feeling a bit thin. White will have to spend a move defending them, so he has lost the initiative.

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Offline Dusk Eagle
 Post subject: Re: Dictionary of Modern Fuseki - problem 4
Post #14 Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 2:21 pm 
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So most of us are wrong :D

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Offline snorri
 Post subject: Re: Dictionary of Modern Fuseki - problem 4
Post #15 Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 4:11 pm 
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'b' is the wrong direction of play.
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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Dictionary of Modern Fuseki - problem 4
Post #16 Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 9:21 pm 
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snorri wrote:
'b' is the wrong direction of play.


Interesting way of phrasing it. In other words, encouraging him to play L5 is the wrong direction? Away from the western wall and on top of the weak 2-space extension?

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Offline Dusk Eagle
 Post subject: Re: Dictionary of Modern Fuseki - problem 4
Post #17 Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 9:51 pm 
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Why are we still hiding things?

snorri wrote:
'b' is the wrong direction of play.

My problem with this statement is that it's really vague. What do you mean when you say "It's the wrong direction of play"?

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Offline Chew Terr
 Post subject: Re: Dictionary of Modern Fuseki - problem 4
Post #18 Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 10:38 pm 
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Dusk Eagle wrote:
Why are we still hiding things?

snorri wrote:
'b' is the wrong direction of play.

My problem with this statement is that it's really vague. What do you mean when you say "It's the wrong direction of play"?


Snorri can correct me, but I thought something similar (despite being too shy to be outspoken on it). White only has one and a half weak groups. The bottom right is the weak one, the top right is the half. 'B' pushes b on top of W's weakest group, while leaving the top unhelped, either. The top right wall isn't really weak, but if it has to live in the corner or something, it's not serving the purpose W wanted it to.

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Offline jts
 Post subject: Re: Dictionary of Modern Fuseki - problem 4
Post #19 Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 10:39 pm 
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Okay, we'll stop hiding things. Dusk Eagle, you said you pictured a black stone at B and didn't like it. Would you also claim that J7 is the best point for B here? And, counterfactually, if B played L5 before W played J7, can you see either player coming back to play J7 (either immediately, or soon after) because it's such a valuable point?

As far as "direction of play" goes: on the bottom, W's wall, by itself, would have a big arrow pointing towards J6, but the black stones there blunt that and make it weak. W's weak group has an arrow rising to the center, to get out of any possible danger, and slightly to the left, due to the possibility of forcing B towards the wall. B's weak group, meanwhile, has an arrow pointing directly to the right, with the aim of parlaying that group into thickness facing the center.

I'm not saying this is a brilliant analysis, but I don't think the term direction of play is "vague". I would say more "difficult". I couldn't possibly tell you what the "balance of territory" is on this board, and if I tried I'd probably be wildly off and you would make fun of me. But that's not because the balance of territory is vague, is it?
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Offline emeraldemon
 Post subject: Re: Dictionary of Modern Fuseki - problem 4
Post #20 Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 11:03 pm 
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I've never liked opening problems. I'm sure the authors know more than I do, but it always feels so subjective. I stumbled across Step Up to a Higher Level at a used bookstore, it's meant as a test for 7 kyu players. I figured, what the heck, I'll go through it. Here's how I did:

Opening:
18/24
semeai:
30/30
tesuji:
29/30
life & death:
29/30
endgame:
29/30

apparently my opening is my worst area :-? . Fortunately for me, This was still good enough to qualify as "6k+" for the test purposes.
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