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Offline mic
 Post subject: ??. mic (9k) vs. Chew Terr (6k) (Open)
Post #1 Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 1:57 am 
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Hello,

this will be an open Malkovich game between Chew Terr and me, suggested by topazg. Open does mean that we both can read all comments of other posters (and of course from the other one).

Chew Terr, I wish you a lot of fun. I'm quite curious how this will work.

Cheers,
Mic

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Move 1 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: (Open) Malkovich Game: mic vs. Chew Terr
Post #2 Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 2:09 am 
Tengen
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Good luck both :)
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Offline Solomon
 Post subject: Re: (Open) Malkovich Game: mic vs. Chew Terr
Post #3 Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 2:12 am 
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It will be very bizarre to see Black lose with 2 stones under such circumstances.
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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: (Open) Malkovich Game: mic vs. Chew Terr
Post #4 Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 2:26 am 
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Araban wrote:
It will be very bizarre to see Black lose with 2 stones under such circumstances.


I'm not so sure - as long as people aren't saying "X should play here next" it doesn't have as much of an impact as you'd think. I play a lot of similar games as teaching games on DGS, and it tends to knock about 30 or 40 percent off the rank difference. Besides, 2 stones is not so much at 7k to 9k even for two players of the same grade :)
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Offline Solomon
 Post subject: Re: (Open) Malkovich Game: mic vs. Chew Terr
Post #5 Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 2:30 am 
Gosei
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topazg wrote:
Araban wrote:
It will be very bizarre to see Black lose with 2 stones under such circumstances.


I'm not so sure - as long as people aren't saying "X should play here next" it doesn't have as much of an impact as you'd think. I play a lot of similar games as teaching games on DGS, and it tends to knock about 30 or 40 percent off the rank difference. Besides, 2 stones is not so much at 7k to 9k even for two players of the same grade :)

Touché, I forgot to take into consideration the player ranks and that comments don't have to be novels containing every detailed variation inside the players' minds :). I'd say W's chances are maximized if he writes as succinctly as some other particular Malkovich player and stronger players don't offer too much guidance for B :P.
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Offline mic
 Post subject: Re: (Open) Malkovich Game: mic vs. Chew Terr
Post #6 Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 2:51 am 
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Araban wrote:
It will be very bizarre to see Black lose with 2 stones under such circumstances.

That does not put any pressure on me ;-)

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Offline mic
 Post subject: Re: (Open) Malkovich Game: mic vs. Chew Terr
Post #7 Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 2:52 am 
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Araban wrote:
I'd say W's chances are maximized if he writes as succinctly as some other particular Malkovich player and stronger players don't offer too much guidance for B :P.

For Chew Terr and me it's not so much about winning or loosing but more about the process. So hopefully he will write insightful comments as I will try to do, too :)

- Mic

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Offline Solomon
 Post subject: Re: (Open) Malkovich Game: mic vs. Chew Terr
Post #8 Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 2:55 am 
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mic wrote:
Araban wrote:
I'd say W's chances are maximized if he writes as succinctly as some other particular Malkovich player and stronger players don't offer too much guidance for B :P.

For Chew Terr and me it's not so much about winning or loosing but more about the process. So hopefully he will write insightful comments as I will try to do, too :)

- Mic

Hehe I was just joking :). I agree with the philosophy that Malkovich games aren't about winning or losing between the players, but for learning among the players and the observers.
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Offline Chew Terr
 Post subject: Re: (Open) Malkovich Game: mic vs. Chew Terr
Post #9 Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 7:18 am 
Gosei
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Move 2 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . W . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Top of the morning! Thanks for setting up the board, Mic. To be honest, I expect that I will lose, but I may be able to pull something nasty, so we'll see.

Read on:
I was actually half-tempted to approach one of the full corners instead of taking an empty one. That's because, since there are two, I could treat them as miai and be sure to get one or the other. However, if black got the sente first, mic could take whichever corner would work better with my growing shape. Not good. So I may as well be boring, and take one corner. I expect, of course, that mic will take the last one. The question is how. I'm taking my corner with a balanced 4-4 stone, so that I have the freedom to do something direct against one of mic's corners next. If he plays an unbalanced stone like a 3-4, I will approach it to prevent an enclosure and start building groups. If he plays a balanced 4-4, I will probably approach at R14 or F3, in order to build a shape that works well with my light stake on the bottom right corner.


Observers and mic, feel free to question or comment on any of this.

As an aside, if mic thrashes me soundly, I intend to take it as a compliment to my comments and explanations (in addition to MHO's skill). I am quite interested in this as a learning format.

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Offline mic
 Post subject: Re: (Open) Malkovich Game: mic vs. Chew Terr
Post #10 Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 9:30 am 
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Hello,

first a technical question: If I can/should read your comments, too, what's the point in hiding them using the hide-tags? Or am I missing something?

Quote:
As an aside, if mic thrashes me soundly, I intend to take it as a compliment to my comments and explanations (in addition to MHO's skill). I am quite interested in this as a learning format.

Me too. I'm really curios how my playing style changes when I can look into my opponent's mind. What's a MHO?


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Move 3 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


My normal 4-3 opening. Nothing spectacular to say about this. If White approaches (which he probably will, because it is the last big point of the corners) I'll pincer; unfortunatly, I really don't like pincers, that's why I am going to play them much more (thanks, topazg :P).

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Offline Chew Terr
 Post subject: Re: (Open) Malkovich Game: mic vs. Chew Terr
Post #11 Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 9:42 am 
Gosei
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Move 3 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


MHO = (correct me if I'm wrong) My honorable opponent. I think I'm remembering it right. Just an amusing abbreviation I learned from Sol and Joaz's Malkovich game. I'm going to keep putting any long analysis into hide tags, just to keep the posts smaller and more organized.
As I said in my last post, I'm going to approach the uneven corner. I'm tempted to play high to learn more about it, but I decided to go low so that I can settle more easily. Mic said he'll probably pincer, which is fine. Since his stone is a low 3-4, I will jump out, and fight. His groups will be separated, so I intend to put pressure on both to get stability. Depending on which pincer he tries, I may try to push the western group low, building thickness in the center to attack from. That might be a good way to make up the handicap. I'll figure out more later based on what he does, but this is my initial plan. As always, I don't REALLY know the joseki for this.

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Offline Bill Spight
 Post subject: Re: (Open) Malkovich Game: mic vs. Chew Terr
Post #12 Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 10:10 am 
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Chew Terr wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Move 2 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . W . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Top of the morning! Thanks for setting up the board, Mic. To be honest, I expect that I will lose, but I may be able to pull something nasty, so we'll see.

Read on:
I was actually half-tempted to approach one of the full corners instead of taking an empty one. That's because, since there are two, I could treat them as miai and be sure to get one or the other. However, if black got the sente first, mic could take whichever corner would work better with my growing shape. Not good. So I may as well be boring, and take one corner. I expect, of course, that mic will take the last one. The question is how. I'm taking my corner with a balanced 4-4 stone, so that I have the freedom to do something direct against one of mic's corners next. If he plays an unbalanced stone like a 3-4, I will approach it to prevent an enclosure and start building groups. If he plays a balanced 4-4, I will probably approach at R14 or F3, in order to build a shape that works well with my light stake on the bottom right corner.


Observers and mic, feel free to question or comment on any of this.

As an aside, if mic thrashes me soundly, I intend to take it as a compliment to my comments and explanations (in addition to MHO's skill). I am quite interested in this as a learning format.


Approaching one of the Black corners at move 1 is, OC, OK. :)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Preparing a mini-Chinese
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


For instance, Black might make a knight's reply and then White can play :w3:, with an eye to a mini-Chinese.

Here is an ancient 2 stone game where White approached the Black corner first. The opening is rather interesting, I think. :)



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Offline mic
 Post subject: Re: (Open) Malkovich Game: mic vs. Chew Terr
Post #13 Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 10:44 am 
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Hiding comments to keep post short is a good idea.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I though about pincering at a or b, too. I do not like a because after :w3: a is too close to the white group. Nevertheless, :bc: is near enough to not allow white to extend to the side. Since I don't know the joseki for b (not that I know the josekis for the others ones), I won't play it. After :w3: I'll probably extend to d to build a base for attacking the running white group.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . d . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Offline Chew Terr
 Post subject: Re: (Open) Malkovich Game: mic vs. Chew Terr
Post #14 Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 12:10 pm 
Gosei
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , W . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Mic, you chose my personal favorite pincer. I had expected a closer one because it's what I'm used to seeing, but this one's a bit more stable and works well with your bottom stone.
Now I need to consider changing that tentative plan of mine. I was originally talking about something like this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

This is just a vague example, but I had intended something like this. I would pressure the west, then leave that thickness and start pushing elsewhere. However, the push at 3 won't work here. Black's pincer is too far away for me to jump and push it down. Well, if black can mess up this plan, I can roll with the punches. I may not be able to push on the west to build a wall, but nothing says I can't push the north for the same reason. Let's see about something like this: Press the north, force it to build stability, then use my new wall to counterpincer that troublesome black stone. Not at all sure if it'll work, but I think it's got reasonable logic behind it.


Also, mic: your hidden diagram has stones marked 1-2-3. However, :bc: should be marked as 2, and :b2: should be marked :b4: . It's harder to plan when you're expecting to get a free move ;)

Edit:
Bill: That game gets complicated quick. Scary =)

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Offline mic
 Post subject: Re: (Open) Malkovich Game: mic vs. Chew Terr
Post #15 Posted: Fri May 14, 2010 2:09 am 
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Hello,

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . B O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X d . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . B O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O a b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . c e . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I am pretty sure there is a Joseki for this which I don't know. And I am also pretty sure that my move is not joseki (looks to odd for one).

(Is this comprehensible enough or should I add more variations with numbers?) My plan is to cut at b when White a or cut at e White c. I thought about playing d but in all variations I can see this leaves black sealed in.

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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: (Open) Malkovich Game: mic vs. Chew Terr
Post #16 Posted: Fri May 14, 2010 2:24 am 
Tengen
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I'm pretty sure you can extend quite happily:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm7 Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X 1 . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O 2 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This looks very joseki to me - I'd be happy enough with this as Black. However, as you say, if you push, you must cut:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm7 Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O 2 3 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This is a joseki when the marked Black stone is at "a", but like this, I have no idea if it loses the merit that makes it joseki normally. Knowing how some of the insidiously complicated squeezes turn out, I would suspect it does, but it takes off the urgency Black has to defend when his stone is at "a". Certainly, this will go off joseki and very complicated quite quickly I would have thought :)
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Offline mic
 Post subject: Re: (Open) Malkovich Game: mic vs. Chew Terr
Post #17 Posted: Fri May 14, 2010 2:37 am 
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topazg wrote:
I'm pretty sure you can extend quite happily:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm7 Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X 1 . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O 2 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Problem is, that I had the cut at F17 open and eventually have to play B17. Some variations I read out when White plays there make it complicated (even though I did not read as deep as you).


Quote:
Certainly, this will go off joseki and very complicated quite quickly I would have thought :)

It seems that all variations in this game get rather complicated ... probably is a general property of Go ;)

- Mic

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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: (Open) Malkovich Game: mic vs. Chew Terr
Post #18 Posted: Fri May 14, 2010 2:49 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm7 Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . a 0 8 6 5 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . b 9 X 1 4 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O 2 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


As long as Black blocks at "a" and doesn't extend again, White loses this race. Because of this, Black can connect at "13" safely, and just has to remember there's some aji left. If this was bad for Black, the answer is to play "9" at "10" and jump ahead on the next move :)
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Offline Bill Spight
 Post subject: Re: (Open) Malkovich Game: mic vs. Chew Terr
Post #19 Posted: Fri May 14, 2010 6:53 am 
Honinbo

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topazg wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm7 Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O 2 3 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This is a joseki when the marked Black stone is at "a", but like this, I have no idea if it loses the merit that makes it joseki normally. Knowing how some of the insidiously complicated squeezes turn out, I would suspect it does, but it takes off the urgency Black has to defend when his stone is at "a". Certainly, this will go off joseki and very complicated quite quickly I would have thought :)


:w10: is a mistake. :)

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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: (Open) Malkovich Game: mic vs. Chew Terr
Post #20 Posted: Fri May 14, 2010 6:55 am 
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Yeah, I figured White wouldn't play that with Black's stone moved away, forcing himself through the gap like that isn't necessary now, but I was trying not to say until they'd played out

My White 10:

The only move I think:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm7 Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 O 4 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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